Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs

[Stephen]

Yes of course any job losses are tragic and unfair.

However as has already been stated in the thread, its not the Tories fault. Industry has changed over the years and if its cheaper for companies to import then thats what they will do. You can't stop change.

you may not always agree but if you were the companies getting materials imported which would save you a lot of money to ensure that YOUR business kept running, then you would probably take that option.

[Osem]

Odd how Arthur isn't moaning about the loss of jobs in the oil industry, possibly because he quite likes cheaper petrol and all the things that accompany it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-34193720

[Arthurgray50@blu]

lets put it this way. What is the role of the Prime Minister. who we do or nor vote for.

Its to protect and bring out policies that will benefit the British People. And to boost British Industry.

Each time we vote for an MP, its to work for our ward, and to give usthe help we need from an MP.

When we get a Prime Minister, its his job to protect the UNITED KINGDOM, and to give information to the QUEEN,
Its his or job to protect the interest the BRITISH PEOPLE.

That's to protect the WHOLE of the UNITED KINGDOM

At th present time Cameron is failing on all points

Wether its Oil, Coal, steel or anything. Its up to the Prime Minister to protect us.

[Ignitionnet]

Make the case for how supporting an uncompetitive steel industry with taxpayers' money benefits the British people and I'll be listening.

By British people I mean all of us, not just those whose jobs may be saved, given we'll all be footing the bill.

I've no idea what you're referring to with oil. Are you suggesting we subsidise North Sea oilfields to compensate them for the low prices?

China produced more steel in the last 2 years than we have since the industrial revolution. To protect our steel industry through intervention would require nationalisation and an open wallet or to go to the EU and try and have trade barriers put up against Chinese steel.

Every time you complain about the taxes you pay it implies you wouldn't be in favour of nationalisation, unless of course the plan is that other people pay, and there's no way we could get the EU machine to aid us quickly enough, so what are the options?

What both protects those who work in the industry and takes account of the interests of those footing the bill Arthur?

[Russ]

If the steelworks closes then it will destroy Port Talbot. I'll be the first to slag the town off (although I won't let people who have never been there have a go at it for some reason....), I grew up and lived there for 30+ years and it's not the prettiest by any stretch of the imagination but PT without the plant will massively impact what is already an unemployment blackspot. It's estimated 25,000 jobs will go if you also factor in all the companies that rely on the steelworks or have strong business ties to it. Port Talbot has a population of around 35,000.

Re-nationalisation if only temporarily while the place is stabilised long enough to make it viable for a buyer to come along seems the only way forward. The government did it with the banks, why not the steelworks? Ah that's right, PT and the steel industry is too working class.....

Originally Posted by Russ

The government did it with the banks, why not the steelworks? Ah that's right, PT and the steel industry is too working class.....

Also because banking was still a viable industry despite the crash and, importantly, because the risk to the rest of the economy from the banking system going under would have dwarfed the effect the collapse of the steel industry will have.

[figgyburn]

Shipbulding-gone,Coalmining-gone ,Fishing near as damn gone,Steelmaking- going going gone.Governments of all colours have sold us down the river.Never mind britain is good at the service industries i.e.selling chinese made crap in shops,serving pints/meals in pubs,and a tourist destination so people can see how great this country used to be.We used to lead the way, now we are are not even following but lagging way behind.We have sold off all the family silver and have nothing left to pawn.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Russ

If the steelworks closes then it will destroy Port Talbot. I'll be the first to slag the town off (although I won't let people who have never been there have a go at it for some reason....), I grew up and lived there for 30+ years and it's not the prettiest by any stretch of the imagination but PT without the plant will massively impact what is already an unemployment blackspot. It's estimated 25,000 jobs will go if you also factor in all the companies that rely on the steelworks or have strong business ties to it. Port Talbot has a population of around 35,000.

Re-nationalisation if only temporarily while the place is stabilised long enough to make it viable for a buyer to come along seems the only way forward. The government did it with the banks, why not the steelworks? Ah that's right, PT and the steel industry is too working class.....

The problem is, without another super-cycle in commodities like we have seen with China, it is unlikely PT will ever be viable as it stands.

There's a reason why most of US made steel is now made with methods other than blast furnaces at the start of the process (Info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_a..._United_States) and at least 2 major blast furnace powered sites have shut down in the last decade there.

Newer methods of steel production can be varied due to demand, and idled when supply outstrips demand. Blast Furnaces cannot be idled, and thus, PT has had to continue to produce iron and thus too much material to make steel. Furthermore, blast furnaces are by far the most expensive production method to run, are not exactly environmentally friendly, and unlike newer methods, cannot work with scrap iron and steel.

Basically, the PT blast furnaces are doomed, and whether it gets a stay of execution or not is really besides the point. As we have seen calls for nationalisation, I think a better use of around the money would be to help pay for new, modern furnaces at PT, that can then feed the steelworks and other industry. That way we can keep a vital industry (The steel producing side is very, very much required for manufacturing here), but ditch the part which is causing most of the problems.

Again, like I said before, it'll be painful, as it will mean heavy job losses on the furnace side as modern production methods are leaner and need less manpower, but it will safeguard production here for decades and protect against price shocks like we have seen, rather than punt things down the road and hope that prices don't fall again. I've lost count of the amount of times I hear "Well, once Steel prices rise, we will be fine", but nothing acknowledging that if steel prices fall again after that, we'll be back here.

We cannot stay with the status quo. Govt has a role to play to help transition PT into a 21st century facility, but cannot subsidise a legacy industry just because.

I will never slag off PT, the workers there or the community. It isn't their fault at all and the whole community needs as much assistance as can be granted. However, that means taking brave steps for the long term, and short term, it will hurt.

[heero_yuy]

^^ This.

I remember when the as then British steel was a nationalised industry in the late 70's and it was costing the tax payer £3million a day! Together with British Leyland, shipbuilding and British coal, all nationalised, they were bleeding the country dry.

It wasn't viable then and it still isn't.

[figgyburn]

Was in pittsburgh(king steel)usa last year.Nothing left of the huge steel works except a few chimneys left for posterity.What is there now?. A shopping centre of course.Shape of things to come.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by figgyburn

Was in pittsburgh(king steel)usa last year.Nothing left of the huge steel works except a few chimneys left for posterity.What is there now?. A shopping centre of course.Shape of things to come.

It's not called "The Rust Belt" for nothing.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Also because banking was still a viable industry despite the crash and, importantly, because the risk to the rest of the economy from the banking system going under would have dwarfed the effect the collapse of the steel industry will have.

Too true.

If Brown had let the banking system collapse what would have kept UK PLC running in the aftermath? The effects would have been staggering!

Let's not forget that for every one easy target fat cat banker there are hundreds of ordinary bank workers who have lost their jobs too since the banking crisis. All the banks lost staff, thousands, anyone recall Bradford and Bingley, Northern Rock? No, of course not they were just greedy CITY bankers weren't they. The financial sector has shed vast numbers of jobs since 2008 and most of them are ordinary, hard working people who had as much to do with the failures of the banking system as Port Talbot steelworkers have to do with the global price of steel. Still I suppose anyone who wears a suit to work is fair game eh?...

Most people will have a lot of sympathy for those who'll lose their jobs and the effects that will have on those communities but surely nobody's going to try to pretend that the state effectively taking on up these uncompetitive industries is going to be cost or pain free, even if it's possible under EU laws. A nice simple quick fix which won't affect anything or anyone else? Yeah right.

People like Arthur want it both ways. In fact they want it any way which doesn't impinge negatively on their lives whilst providing an opportunity to blame someone called a Tory even when his beloved Labour were actually responsible as shown above. They whine about cuts to this, that and the other and demand higher benefits, more/better services, better wages yet at the same time moan when prices, rents and taxes go up as a consequence. Point out the entirely contradictory nature of their demands and gripes and they scuttle off only to reappear a few days later with the same tired old nonsense.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

^^ This.

I remember when the as then British steel was a nationalised industry in the late 70's and it was costing the tax payer £3million a day! Together with British Leyland, shipbuilding and British coal, all nationalised, they were bleeding the country dry.

It wasn't viable then and it still isn't.

Exactly... and how many of those mouthing off about saving jobs actually put their cash where their mouths were and bought BL cars as? We were subsidising, for the most part, dodgy British built cars when people wanted to buy better and/or cheaper imported offerings. Odd that eh?...

Someone please tell me who's going to want to buy expensive British made steel knowing they'll have to pass on the extra costs of that to the consumer and end user who in many cases will simply decide to shop elsewhere?

Originally Posted by Osem

Someone please tell me who's going to want to buy expensive British made steel knowing they'll have to pass on the extra costs of that to the consumer and end user who in many cases will simply decide to shop elsewhere.

I wondered that, considering steel would be needed for HS2, Crossrail 3, a successor to trident and many other things if the Government would find enough business in it's own infrastructure projects? It may be cheaper to import steel but might not be cheaper once you factor in the cost of losing jobs.

That said they seem to be losing so much money at PT that it may be cheaper to buy steel elsewhere and pay off thousands of workers for life than keep it going. I don't really know.

Originally Posted by Damien

.

That said they seem to be losing so much money at PT that it may be cheaper to buy steel elsewhere and pay off thousands of workers for life than keep it going. I don't really know.

Pretty much what happened with the coal industry ...

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Damien

I wondered that, considering steel would be needed for HS2, Crossrail 3, a successor to trident and many other things if the Government would find enough business in it's own infrastructure projects? It may be cheaper to import steel but might not be cheaper once you factor in the cost of losing jobs.

That said they seem to be losing so much money at PT that it may be cheaper to buy steel elsewhere and pay off thousands of workers for life than keep it going. I don't really know.

Well, if PT is losing £1 million a day, the Govt could actually pay £20,000 (In benefits and lost tax revenue) to 15,000 people (Which is what is said to be at stake here in total if PT went under) a year. This would cost £821,917 a day, so would be cheaper than eating the losses at the plant. The losses currently at the plant are staggering and to be honest, 15,000 jobs lost is a doomsday scenario. Just taking the plant and eating that sort of loss is not only fiscally irresponsible anyway, but maybe more expensive than the "worst case" scenario.