Harman's Labour 'rebellion'

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Pierre

This is the way it should be though. If Labour go further left, which is where they should be, it gives a clear choice and if the country agrees they'll vote for them.

What we don't want is a return to the Blair days of Tory Light Labour where the parties were undistiguishable.

I agree. Let Stormin' Corbyn have his day; at least he is a principled leftie and not a careerist fake.

[Osem]

Me too - more power to Corbyn! Just watch the fame go to his head...

[denphone]

Better to have someone who is real and has principles rather then the fake phonies we have had lately.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by denphone

Better to have someone who is real and has principles rather then the fake phonies we have had lately.

Even if they make the party they're supposed to be serving unelectable?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Osem

Even if they make the party they're supposed to be serving unelectable?

Well that's not been tested with him so we will have to find out in 5 years time whether he is electable or not.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by denphone

Well that's not been tested with him so we will have to find out in 5 years time whether he is electable or not.

I think Michael Foot's final 'contribution' to Labour might be an indication. In any event having principles isn't enough.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by denphone

Well that's not been tested with him so we will have to find out in 5 years time whether he is electable or not.

Foot 2.0

'nuf said.

I can't see how he could possibly win. Some of this ideas may end up being popular but he'll lack fiscal credibility, be perceived as too extreme and generally not PM material IMO. Much like Miliband.

The only way I can see it happening is if we're underestimating the appeal of a different message to that which has been provided over the last 15-20 years. Maybe it is the case that since Blair we all assume that people want centrist Governments that make small incremental changes and are judged on competency rather than policy. I mean the last election really was about that wasn't it? There wasn't too much difference between the parties and now even Osbourne is aping some of the Labour policies, such as the living wage, which was deemed as rampant socialism by Labour's critics prior to the election. For their part Labour mirrored Osbourne's stance on eliminating the deficit and running a balanced budget where possible!

The only people who got passionate about this minor differences were hyper-patisans who tried to claim it amounted to the world of difference. The Tories would chuck the dying onto the streets whereas Labour would rob them then their dead according to them. Normal people didn't care.

Maybe Corbyn will succeed by offering a genuine difference and benefit from the 'Farage' effect where people believe what he is saying. I doubt it will work though.

His supporters are falling for the same trap they did during the Election. All their friends, Twitter and Facebook love him ergo the whole nation loves him. After all who isn't on Twitter and Facebook talking about politics 24/7?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

Maybe Corbyn will succeed by offering a genuine difference and benefit from the 'Farage' effect where people believe what he is saying. I doubt it will work though.

His supporters are falling for the same trap they did during the Election. All their friends, Twitter and Facebook love him ergo the whole nation loves him. After all who isn't on Twitter and Facebook talking about politics 24/7?

Those on the further reaches of the left tend to be absolutely vile online in my experience.

In my experience some are tetchy, middle class, obsessively PC social justice warriors who don't even attempt to engage in reasoned debate but run their spiel about why every viewpoint apart from their own is wrong, then run away to their safe place.

Others are also tetchy and obsessively PC, but add to that the extra charm of throwing hateful bile rather than just running a miniature manifesto at you. Then having thrown that bile will leave with some insult about how a person isn't worth speaking to.

What both have in common is their utter refusal to engage with anyone with a viewpoint that doesn't match their own, a disdain for basic liberties such as freedom of speech, deeming it far less valuable than their own 'right' to not be offended or challenged, and a strong preference for the prevailing group think.

Regrettably this point of view seems rather common in younger generations especially. Previously that's where free thinkers were; now it's where the group think, political correctness and an entitlement to not be challenged are.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Damien

I can't see how he could possibly win. Some of this ideas may end up being popular but he'll lack fiscal credibility,

Hey totally unrealistic fantasyland economics have worked pretty well for the SNP up here.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Those on the further reaches of the left tend to be absolutely vile online in my experience.

In my experience some are tetchy, middle class, obsessively PC social justice warriors who don't even attempt to engage in reasoned debate but run their spiel about why every viewpoint apart from their own is wrong, then run away to their safe place.

Others are also tetchy and obsessively PC, but add to that the extra charm of throwing hateful bile rather than just running a miniature manifesto at you. Then having thrown that bile will leave with some insult about how a person isn't worth speaking to.

What both have in common is their utter refusal to engage with anyone with a viewpoint that doesn't match their own, a disdain for basic liberties such as freedom of speech, deeming it far less valuable than their own 'right' to not be offended or challenged, and a strong preference for the prevailing group think.

Regrettably this point of view seems rather common in younger generations especially. Previously that's where free thinkers were; now it's where the group think, political correctness and an entitlement to not be challenged are.

I agree. I have seen some of them on my Twitter feed and it's not nice. At the moment it's about the expulsion of the Blairites (read: moderates) if they win the leadership of the Labour party. It's the type of person for whom 'Tory' is the worst epithet they can award someone. At no point does it occur to any of them then they should be expanding the Labour electorate rather than diminishing it until it's just them and their little club.

The whole idea of the social justice warriors and safe spaces is a bizarre internet subculture that exists only online or in some Universities. Most of the time online however they seek out the other idiots on the other side of the debate (i.e MRAs) and they all then fight an pointless battle than no one can relate too (gamergate) so they're more an interesting little group than a problem with society.

Also let's not pretend it's a problem just with the left either. The equivalent on the right are the Britain First memes that get spread around or even just the plain racist, xenophobic and misogynistic comments than you can find.

The internet just amplifies the fringes.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

I agree. I have seen some of them on my Twitter feed and it's not nice. At the moment it's about the expulsion of the Blairites (read: moderates) if they win the leadership of the Labour party. It's the type of person for whom 'Tory' is the worst epithet they can award someone. At no point does it occur to any of them then they should be expanding the Labour electorate rather than diminishing it until it's just them and their little club.

The whole idea of the social justice warriors and safe spaces is a bizarre internet subculture that exists only online or in some Universities. Most of the time online however they seek out the other idiots on the other side of the debate (i.e MRAs) and they all then fight an pointless battle than no one can relate too (gamergate) so they're more an interesting little group than a problem with society.

Also let's not pretend it's a problem just with the left either. The equivalent on the right are the Britain First memes that get spread around or even just the plain racist, xenophobic and misogynistic comments than you can find.

The internet just amplifies the fringes.

All of which explains why some of stay clear of social media and are untroubled by the nonsense which infests it.

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek

Hey totally unrealistic fantasyland economics have worked pretty well for the SNP up here.

Had they got their way at the referendum, those fantasyland figures would by now be focusing a lot of minds amongst those who naively bought into all the rhetoric. Good referendum to lose methinks...

[heero_yuy]

Jeremy Corbyn’s march towards a shock victory in the Labour leadership race took another leap forward today when he won the backing of the Unison trade union.

Unison leaders decided to nominate the veteran left-wing backbencher, who is running on an anti-austerity ticket. They named Yvette Cooper as the union’s second choice, boosting her prospects of emerging as the “stop Corbyn” candidate as bookmakers William Hill made him the favourite for the first time, at 11-8. He started the contest as a 200-1 outsider.

Unison’s decision was a double blow to Andy Burnham, the shadow Health Secretary, who had hopes of winning Unison after his long campaign against “NHS privatisation.” The union has thousands of members working in the NHS.

Linky

Bet that sticks in Andy Burnham's craw. He would have been counting on the support of NHS Unions as his trump card. Stafford Hospital Karma?

[heero_yuy]

Jeremy Corbyn will win the Labour leadership contest in a first-round landslide victory with 53 per cent, according to a new poll from YouGov.

Corbyn has been polling way ahead of his competition for weeks, but this result gives him the largest lead so far, putting him 32 points ahead of Andy Burnham, who came in second place.

The poll revealed that Yvette Cooper would get 18 per cent of the vote, and Liz Kendall would trail with only eight per cent.

Linky

Looks like Jezzer's got it in the bag.

[Ignitionnet]

Good. If it takes Labour tearing itself to pieces and being reborn to get effective opposition in place so be it.

Other than those with serious persecution complexes relating to Labour I doubt that anyone is happy with the current situation.

Effective government needs effective opposition.