Drug law reform

Originally Posted by Will21st

Well,whilst alcohol may well be as harmful as crack,the user of neither should be punished,that's the point.If someone feels like self-harming then I don't believe it's the governments job to stop me or anybody else.




I don't believe that a majority of people in this country would start using crack or heroin if it was legally available.I know I wouldn't,and neither would you Marty,I believe.

you've misunderstood ,i meant that possibly a majority of people in britain are drug users (including fags and alchohol) i should have been clearer,which in my book would be a statement from society about what is wanted

---------- Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Matt D

Survey? You make it sound like a YouGov panel...

?

study ...my bad

The current classification system is BS and should be re-thought. It should actually take into account levels of harm, e.g. why are some people severely punished for choosing to use something that is far less socially harmful and physically harmful than other drugs in the same Class and even other drugs that are actually legal?

and i agree, but what do we do about alcohol then ,the most harmful drug and the most widely used ,the study is unambiguous about that

[Tezcatlipoca]

I posted a couple of alcohol related quotes from Nutt before:

Originally Posted by Guardian article on the second study

The authors write: "Our findings lend support to previous work in the UK and the Netherlands, confirming that the present drug classification systems have little relation to the evidence of harm. They also accord with the conclusions of previous expert reports that aggressively targeting alcohol harm is a valid and necessary public health strategy."

(snip)

Nutt called for far more effort to be put into reducing harm caused by alcohol, pointing out that its economic costs, as well as the costs to society of addiction and broken families, are very high. Taxation on alcohol is "completely inappropriate", he said – with strong cider, for instance, taxed at a fifth of the rate of wine – and action should particularly target the low cost and promotion of alcohol such as Bacardi breezers to young people.

The government's recent talk of a minimum price for alcohol actually fits in with this, as that's aimed at tackling problem drinking... I'm in two minds over that. Part of me hates the very idea, because I hate the nanny state ... yet at the same time something does need to be done as alcohol abuse is a massive problem.

Originally Posted by Matt D

I posted a couple of alcohol related quotes from Nutt before:




The government's recent talk of a minimum price for alcohol actually fits in with this, as that's aimed at tackling problem drinking... I'm in two minds over that. Part of me hates the very idea, because I hate the nanny state ... yet at the same time something does need to be done as alcohol abuse is a massive problem.

Agreed .One thing i am concerned about is minimum pricing of alcohol could lead to an increase in black market booze ,the same as trying to price fags out of peoples pockets

[AdamD]

Never had a problem with SOME drug use myself, if people want to smoke stuff like Cannabis, I say let them

I would hazard a guess (I haven't checked), that a lot more people die from drinking and smoking cigarettes/tobacco, than they do stuff like Cannabis?

I dunno, but if the EXPERTS say the law should be changed, who are the government to turn round and say "no"?

I personally don't smoke anything, nor drink or take any form of drugs.

Perhaps the solution is just to do what I think most people assume the government would do, if it was legalised...tax it.

The only thing the government can do, is educate people about the dangers of smoking, taking drugs and drinking.

And if people become ill as a result of doing the above, perhaps they should be made to pay for their hospital treatment.

Originally Posted by AdamD

Perhaps the solution is just to do what I think most people assume the government would do, if it was legalised...tax it.
.

I honestly think that legalizing and taxing some drugs would encourage the black market .

The only thing the government can do, is educate people about the dangers of smoking, taking drugs and drinking.

Educate and take their chances is the best option

And if people become ill as a result of doing the above, perhaps they should be made to pay for their hospital treatment

Couldn't agree with that

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by martyh

I honestly think that legalizing and taxing some drugs would encourage the black market .

Nah,that doesn't make sense,Marty.... prohibition is the perfect black market for OC.If drugs are legally regulated it will take away the profit from the crooks and put it into the hands of proper businesses,just like when alcohol prohibition ended Capone was out and Jack Daniel's in....

I agree with you on overtaxing,though.Tobacco is indeed too expensive and encourages a black market. I also agree the same could happen with drugs if tax isn't applied carefully.



snip

Originally Posted by martyh

Couldn't agree with that

I agree,if we stop medical treatment for risky behaviours than where do you draw the line....

Originally Posted by Will21st

Nah,that doesn't make sense,Marty.... prohibition is the perfect black market for OC.If drugs are legally regulated it will take away the profit from the crooks and put it into the hands of proper businesses,just like when alcohol prohibition ended Capone was out and Jack Daniel's in....

I agree with you on overtaxing,though.Tobacco is indeed too expensive and encourages a black market. I also agree the same could happen with drugs if tax isn't applied carefully.
.

There is a thriving black market for fags and booze ,in fact just about anything that is taxed simply because the crooks can supply/produce cheaper and people want cheap .Of course some will by legit drugs as they buy legit fags but there will always be a black market for drugs imo

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by martyh

There is a thriving black market for fags and booze ,in fact just about anything that is taxed simply because the crooks can supply/produce cheaper and people want cheap .Of course some will by legit drugs as they buy legit fags but there will always be a black market for drugs imo

Whilst I do agree there is one distinct difference.We don't have Booze and Fag 'dealers' shooting each other in our streets,terrorising whole estates and destabilising entire countries.
With fags and even more so booze people mostly choose the legal option. The difference to drugs is there is a choice!
The drugs market is entirely in the hands of criminals with no no quality control or regulatory body.Disputes are always being fisty-cuffed,stabbed-,or shot-out in the streets.... no solicitors here!

So yes,there will probably remain a small black market but the overwhelming majority of dealers large and small will have to look for new sources of income.

Originally Posted by Will21st

Whilst I do agree there is one distinct difference.We don't have Booze and Fag 'dealers' shooting each other in our streets,terrorising whole estates and destabilising entire countries.
With fags and even more so booze people mostly choose the legal option. The difference to drugs is there is a choice!
The drugs market is entirely in the hands of criminals with no no quality control or regulatory body.Disputes are always being fisty-cuffed,stabbed-,or shot-out in the streets.... no solicitors here!

So yes,there will probably remain a small black market but the overwhelming majority of dealers large and small will have to look for new sources of income.

I see your point ,maybe it's one of those things that will remain to be seen .It does raise another question though ,assuming you are right and the dealers have to find another source of income what will it be and will it be worse than dealing drugs .Would society be better off keeping the status quo because every one knows where they stand and we don't want society inflicted by another more terrible criminal led horror

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by martyh

I see your point ,maybe it's one of those things that will remain to be seen .It does raise another question though ,assuming you are right and the dealers have to find another source of income what will it be and will it be worse than dealing drugs .Would society be better off keeping the status quo because every one knows where they stand and we don't want society inflicted by another more terrible criminal led horror

This is indeed a problem!

I remember reading a story about a massive drugs bust the police in Liverpool made something like 15 years ago, and just before Christmas,too.Apparently there was an unusual spike in armed robberies on Post Offices and Off Licences since people relied on those drugs as their source of income and now had to look for alternative sources!!

I guess the proper gangsters will always be just that,but a fact is also that many small-time dealers are addicts themselves who buy 'bulk' for friends and themselves and then basically consume the profits....

Another concern could also be that some 'Ghetto-economies' will collapse since drugs to them IS THE ECONOMY.... so for some poor areas it could mean hardship,as stupid as that sounds.

Cans and worms come to mind with this issue....

Originally Posted by Will21st

This is indeed a problem!

I remember reading a story about a massive drugs bust the police in Liverpool made something like 15 years ago, and just before Christmas,too.Apparently there was an unusual spike in armed robberies on Post Offices and Off Licences since people relied on those drugs as their source of income and now had to look for alternative sources!!

I guess the proper gangsters will always be just that,but a fact is also that many small-time dealers are addicts themselves who buy 'bulk' for friends and themselves and then basically consume the profits....

Another concern could also be that some 'Ghetto-economies' will collapse since drugs to them IS THE ECONOMY.... so for some poor areas it could mean hardship,as stupid as that sounds.

Cans and worms come to mind with this issue....

And think of the jobs and income generated by new companies that set up in business to serve customers needs.Licensed to produce a clean product too plus the tax that the government would get in the form of customs and excise.Those bulk buyers could buy their product legally in the amounts they want for their personal use and not risk prison.I can see a lot of upsides too.

Originally Posted by Maggy J

And think of the jobs and income generated by new companies that set up in business to serve customers needs.Licensed to produce a clean product too plus the tax that the government would get in the form of customs and excise.Those bulk buyers could buy their product legally in the amounts they want for their personal use and not risk prison.I can see a lot of upsides too.

That scenario is certainly a possibility but if ,for example, cannabis was legalized and produced under license by legit companies wouldn't it be much more available and possibly cheaper than it is now, meaning more people would be higher for more of the time .Do we really want people openly nipping out to the smoking shelter at work for a joint and getting spaced out .At the moment the rarity and cost of the drugs is providing some sort of control.

Originally Posted by martyh

That scenario is certainly a possibility but if ,for example, cannabis was legalized and produced under license by legit companies wouldn't it be much more available and possibly cheaper than it is now, meaning more people would be higher for more of the time .Do we really want people openly nipping out to the smoking shelter at work for a joint and getting spaced out .At the moment the rarity and cost of the drugs is providing some sort of control.

Well we do advocate that no one uses alcohol when driving or operating machinery.Employers are within their rights to penalise workers who drink on the job and cause foul ups..even to sack them..Why should the use of drugs be any different?

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

And think of the jobs and income generated by new companies that set up in business to serve customers needs.Licensed to produce a clean product too plus the tax that the government would get in the form of customs and excise.Those bulk buyers could buy their product legally in the amounts they want for their personal use and not risk prison.I can see a lot of upsides too.

Yes,I see this scenario as well,it will be a totally new,legal industry created with opportunities for new jobs being created.

Originally Posted by martyh

That scenario is certainly a possibility but if ,for example, cannabis was legalized and produced under license by legit companies wouldn't it be much more available and possibly cheaper than it is now, meaning more people would be higher for more of the time .Do we really want people openly nipping out to the smoking shelter at work for a joint and getting spaced out .At the moment the rarity and cost of the drugs is providing some sort of control.

I think your objection goes back to this fear that many people have,thinking that people will be getting high all the time once it's legal(except themselves,of course).Many people seem to fall into that way of thinking:what will my neighbour do?
There are people now who smoke Cannabis at work now,and I don't believe it will be significantly more or even any more at all if we regulate.If anything use may go down.... the Dutch really aren't that much into weed,and especially the young aren't,since it's not being seen as cool to do it.Legal regulation takes away the whiff of rebellion,which can only be a good thing,imo.

Oh,and drugs really aren't rare at all.Id' wager a guess you could arrive in many towns in Britain and within 30 mins. get hooked up. Heck,if you know where you have to look probably within 10 mins!

At least with a regulated supply there will be ID checks and quality control.'Retailers' who sell to minors will be punished,just as is now,I'd assume.

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well we do advocate that no one uses alcohol when driving or operating machinery.Employers are within their rights to penalise workers who drink on the job and cause foul ups..even to sack them..Why should the use of drugs be any different?

Indeed,the laws surrounding drugs and booze at certain occupations are the same now anyway.Legal cannabis wouldn't mean being allowed to operate a crane whilst high.

[thenry]

End war on drugs, says Durham police chief Mike Barton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24320717

oh yeah thats brilliant. allow crackheads to wonder freely causing mayhem. that and EU Human Rights. living the life!

Home Office: Drugs must remain illegal to 'protect society'

Government clashes with one of England's leading police officers who says Class A drugs should be decriminalised

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...y-8847565.html