still racist

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

How much had you been drinking in order to get into a car and remain in the car while she was driving dangerously and drunk?

You know, I'd live to hear about this religious reason for an Asian Pakistani to only work 30 hours.

I had drunk a few myself, and yes it was a silly thing to do. She said she was fine to drive and to be honest I didn't know just how much she had been drinking. Then add to that how bad her driving was when she was sober I needed a drink to get in the car with her, I did always wonder if she had a valid driving licence.

The religious reasons were very sketchy for this Pakistani, I tried to make conversation with both pakistani's we had there but it was hard work. I did learn that they were a large family living in a big house in the Cheltenham area, and that every member of the family had to put their money into one central pot. He got a weekly allowance back and I have no idea what happened to the rest, he refused to work any overtime and he did tell me it was because he would have no financial gain.

He had been a contractor with the company for about 3 years earning around £30-40 an hour and drove an old battered C reg (1985) Nissan Micra. It appeared that he didn't have 2 pennies to rub together though.

The Indian guys were completely different, the mention of overtime and they were in all weekend. They were always first out of their chair if there was any physical/lifting work unlike the pakistani's. The Indians never discussed religion and would sit around and chat with the group at lunchtime, I am still in contact via email with one of the Indian guys because he has been asking me about jobs in the company I currently work for. The pakistani's would go off and sit in one of their cars at lunchtime, they seemed to do everything to be seperate from the rest of the group.

So I think the bottom line is religion was just a feeble excuse, unless their religion says they have to pool all their money and live like a pauper.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I would say that most muslims who go for prayers on Friday are actually doing so in their lunch time/own time, or taking the time that would have been given for lunch.

Or are you saying that they take a lunch break (say an hour) and then go for their Friday prayers (say another 45min to 1 hour)

First i'm not a foremost expert on this, but it has cropped up before once or twice.

Your assuming they want to worship in their workplace. Most I have asked about this prefer to travel to their mosque. You have to factor in travel from and to work. as you know in London even short journeys can take time. And then on top of that you have the prayers and the extra time around that (washing, traffic leaving mosque, etc).

I dare say they do roll prayers into lunch as the times coincide, however considering lunch is normally only 45-60 mins, and prayers last that long, they are bound to overshoot. And then you say sometimes its more than once a day, and supplemental breaks are normally only 15 mins. AFAIK its unpaid so its no different from choosing to work part-time. I'm guessing unlike Escapee's mate these issues were agreed prior to signing their contract.

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Gavin

I think people will suprised to note that its actually as a result of intelligence lead policing, than racism.

For example. Someone is mugged. They get a description of a young black man with a black jacket. Police are going to stop and search anyone fitting that description, looking for her possessions.

Because descriptions are typically vague, it does hit ethnic groups harder, as they are less distinguishing features (for example, white people normally have variying hair colours, so reduces the amount of people that would be needed to stop and search).

intelligence lead policing ROFL no definitely not its more down to where stop and search is mostly done

if all the figures were released properly you will find this is more down to where you are not what you are also age is a big factor in this too

if you stay away from the town center at night and or any club areas and from any the less well off areas of where ever you live and you not under 20 the likely hood of you being stopped and search almost dissapears

[jkat]

Originally Posted by Paul M

What has to stop exactly ?

racism, direct or indirect, intended or unintended.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by jkat

racism, direct or indirect, intended or unintended.

In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?

[dev]

the numbers stopped and searched are irrelevant, the only numbers that will matter are those that are wrongly stopped and searched, ie the police had no reason to stop/search them. If more black people commit crimes*, it is not racist to arrest them all now is it?

* i'm not saying they do, totally hypothetical situation

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Gavin

First i'm not a foremost expert on this, but it has cropped up before once or twice.

Your assuming they want to worship in their workplace. Most I have asked about this prefer to travel to their mosque. You have to factor in travel from and to work. as you know in London even short journeys can take time. And then on top of that you have the prayers and the extra time around that (washing, traffic leaving mosque, etc).

I dare say they do roll prayers into lunch as the times coincide, however considering lunch is normally only 45-60 mins, and prayers last that long, they are bound to overshoot. And then you say sometimes its more than once a day, and supplemental breaks are normally only 15 mins. AFAIK its unpaid so its no different from choosing to work part-time. I'm guessing unlike Escapee's mate these issues were agreed prior to signing their contract.

Friday prayers should be said in congregation in the mosque, other than a Friday they dont have to be. (afternoon prayers). Everywhere I have worked (Aberdeen, Brentwood, Central London, Outer London) there has been a mosque within sufficient distance to mean that the longest time Ive taken for Friday prayers is an hour & 10 mins from my desk, to the mosque and back again. Thats going back 7 years.

Of course there are mosques which might make it take longer, I dont say Ive worked everywhere in the UK, but everyone I know makes up the time spent by working extra during the week (If its over your standard lunch).

All bosses I have worked for have had no issues regarding Friday prayers.


If I employed a muslim who told me he had to offer his prayers at a mosque and it took him an hour each time, I'd make a room available for him to prayer in and tell him he can use that. Its not against Islam to prayer in a room, as long as you're clean and the room you are in clean then its ook. I would not stop him going to the mosque for Friday prayers.

I have yet to work with muslims who take more than one 1 hour break a day to go and prayer in a mosque.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Friday prayers should be said in congregation in the mosque, other than a Friday they dont have to be. (afternoon prayers). Everywhere I have worked (Aberdeen, Brentwood, Central London, Outer London) there has been a mosque within sufficient distance to mean that the longest time Ive taken for Friday prayers is an hour & 10 mins from my desk, to the mosque and back again. Thats going back 7 years.

Of course there are mosques which might make it take longer, I dont say Ive worked everywhere in the UK, but everyone I know makes up the time spent by working extra during the week (If its over your standard lunch).

All bosses I have worked for have had no issues regarding Friday prayers.


If I employed a muslim who told me he had to offer his prayers at a mosque and it took him an hour each time, I'd make a room available for him to prayer in and tell him he can use that. Its not against Islam to prayer in a room, as long as you're clean and the room you are in clean then its ook. I would not stop him going to the mosque for Friday prayers.

I have yet to work with muslims who take more than one 1 hour break a day to go and prayer in a mosque.

Good post

[jkat]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?

so they stop as many white people in a white area do they?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by jkat

so they stop as many white people in a white area do they?

I believe that Xaccers is making the point that in an area where there are more black people than white, a black person is more likely to be stopped than a white person..

Interesting reading and a sensible debate thus far.

The article did say that discrimination by police is only part of the problem..another reason why black youth are perhaps over represented in the figures could be due to

A web of disadvantages contributes to the situation with the primary cause being social exclusion, caused by under achievement in school, deprivation, poor housing, lack of father involvement and other negative influences in the media and popular culture.

So we need a two fold set of measures to address this problem.Try to make sure that stop and search is applied fairly to all and that police are made to be a little more thoughtful about whom and why they stop and search and that we really try to deal with the other contributory issues instead of shrugging our shoulders and saying in a knee jerk reaction that the black community are being perhaps a bit over sensitive about racism because they feel a certain sense of unfairness about the issue.

[Derek]

Hmmm,

I have never stopped and searched a black person. A few asians but no blacks. I have stopped and searched literally hundreds of white people, most of whom adhere strictly to the skag-fast diet.

Funnily enough most of the crimes in the area I work (Just outside Glasgow, one of the most deprived in Scotland, even Cabletel refused to cable the place as they'd probably have nicked the copper from the cables) are committed by the pale, skinny, white intravenous drug user and maybe I'm stereotyping but given a choice between stop searching a couple of junkies and an old grannie I'll take the junkie option every time.

Maybe I'm just biased coz I don't like them.

I have been accused of being a dirty orange *bleep* or a dirty fenian *bleep* but I suppose thats just the West of Scotland mentality.

The Police aren't racist for going after a certain group if they are responsible for more crimes in an area. It's common sense policing.
If they want to wonder why certain groups are more likely to be involved in crime thats a different debate altogether.

[Xaccers]

You're saying that whites should be stopped and searched more than any other group in your area?
Tsk that's sooooo racist

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Russ B

I wonder if it's geographical. In areas with a higher black population, surely the number of searches will rise proportionally.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

To determin any racism behind it, they need to investigate what proportion of people stopped are then arrested, and how many of those arrested are actually charged and end up in court.

I think you need to look more carefully at all the arrests and the circumstances that are involved not just the area of the arrest.

The demeanor of the person to the offices, the cultural behaviour of the people searched. Perceived racism by the person being questioned leading to different behaviour to what they possibly would have had if the didn't perceived the police as being racist.

I've seen cases on TV where officers have just asked passing questions to black men (predominantly) which as resulted in a load of verbal. This in turn has made the officers more interested the the men than they should have been. This person has done nothing wrong apart from had a bad attitude but the officers don't know that. Next time an officer asks them a question they feel even more aggrieved and harassed and it's a vicious circle. Saying that if you have nothing better to do than stand about the streets all night in a residential area like some (of all colours and creeds) then you must expect to be questioned about what you're up to

There was a good example on Traffic cops this week.

Maybe both parties need to look at their behaviour?

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Xaccers

In your opinion, in an area with a large black community, is stopping more black people than white people racist?

I really think it's more complicated than looking at the population ratios.

When in Leicester city centre I've not seen gangs of white men* hanging about the streets although I know there must be some living there. I do see gangs (for want of a better word) of Asian men (well 15 to 25) of a night. I know there are lots of white men living here, I'm one of them but I don't hang about the streets.

Where am I more likely to be stopped and searched? In the street at 11pm or sitting at home reading CF?

*like I see in other area's of Leicestershire

[jkat]

u got some good points there shaun! i was discussing this today with my wife, about someones perception of a different culture (youth culture, street culture). if for example jamaicans who have suffered racism since the 50's, they are going to be pretty p***ed at being stopped and searched.