Abu hamza attacked - Page 4

Russ · 08-03-2005, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I think it is a bit rich to complain about people espousing extreme ideas when you argue that deportation is a suitable punishment for burning a bit of cloth.

You can be jailed for scraping a bit of metal remember.....or rather, defacing the Queen's image on a coin. I don't see the two 'offences' being all that different.

Ramrod · 08-03-2005, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by NitroNutter

Or should we take it in a more literally offensive way that its them showing what they really want to do to the entire coutries ocupants ?

IMO it demonstartes racism at a height way above anyhting they have endured from us in recent years.

very well said.

philip.j.fry · 08-03-2005, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

You can be jailed for scraping a bit of metal remember.....or rather, defacing the Queen's image on a coin. I don't see the two 'offences' being all that different.

Quite right, defacing the image of the 'Queen' should be made legal

08-03-2005, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

You can be jailed for scraping a bit of metal remember.....or rather, defacing the Queen's image on a coin. I don't see the two 'offences' being all that different.

Or burning bank notes. It's known as 'defacing the coin of the realm' - http://www.pomian.demon.co.uk/weights.htm also see http://www.gold.org/value/reserve_as...1870feb10.html point 7.

So our coinage is protected by law, but the flag isn't.

But anyone thinking that flag is 'just a piece of cloth' might have a look here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/775016.stm to see just how much ire can be created over 'just a flag' - and not even national ones!

08-03-2005, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

But anyone thinking that flag is 'just a piece of cloth' might have a look here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/775016.stm to see just how much ire can be created over 'just a flag' - and not even national ones!

I don`t see how that invalidates my position that it is just a piece of cloth. To me it just strengthens my opinion that people get too worked up over a bit of cloth.

To those who argue that the important thing is what the flag represents, ie. the UK, that suggests to me that there there isn`t anything more worthwhile that can be considered to be representative of this country.

me283 · 08-03-2005, 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBKing

Neil - what are you more frightened of, a loudmouth, well known to the authorities, ranting on the street watched by bored coppers or a nice, quiet professional like Mohammed Atta, having nice, quiet meetings in his Harburg flat while attending the local university? The biggest threat is the one you don't see, the one who takes care not to draw attention to himself.

What rubbish - it's a flag, not a human being. Get over it. Remind me to set fire to one and you can try and deport me for it. Even the USA specifically protects flag burning as a fairly obvious example of freedom of expression, which is one of the things the flag actually stands for.

I'd be a bit more afraid of the fanatics who follow him, and whom he may well incite to commit rather unpleasant acts, be it on a person or a country.

As for the flag, I can think of a few laws that he might be considered to be breaking. I doubt we'll se them being enforced though. But as you say, it's just a piece of cloth. So here's an idea... why don't you go and stand in front of the worshippers and burn a few pictures of Allah, then we'll see what all the fuss is about?

08-03-2005, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by me283

why don't you go and stand in front of the worshippers and burn a few pictures of Allah, then we'll see what all the fuss is about?

Oops, there *ARE* no pictures of Allah, nor indeed of Mohammed because such things are proscribed by Islam...!!!

me283 · 08-03-2005, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I don`t see how that invalidates my position that it is just a piece of cloth. To me it just strengthens my opinion that people get too worked up over a bit of cloth.

To those who argue that the important thing is what the flag represents, ie. the UK, that suggests to me that there there isn`t anything more worthwhile that can be considered to be representative of this country.

I think the point here is that Hamza is happy to live in this country and take all of the support that it gives him. In the meantime he rants on about destroying it, and then goes on to burn it's national flag! If he really loathes it so much, why does he stay? And before you say "it's a free country", that's not the ideal that HE is pursuing.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Oops, there *ARE* no pictures of Allah, nor indeed of Mohammed because such things are proscribed by Islam...!!!

OK, the chap they worship with the beard. No, not Jeremy Beadle! And certainly not Rolf!

orangebird · 08-03-2005, 13:58

Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke

08-03-2005, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I don`t see how that invalidates my position that it is just a piece of cloth. To me it just strengthens my opinion that people get too worked up over a bit of cloth.

By that token the Bible or Koran are 'just books' and nothing to get worked up over either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

To those who argue that the important thing is what the flag represents, ie. the UK, that suggests to me that there there isn`t anything more worthwhile that can be considered to be representative of this country.

No-one is arguing that only the flag represents the UK, nor that it's the only worthwhile representation.
We are arguing that it is a sufficiently worthwhile representation of the UK to warrant more respect than it gets.

And this is not only true of the Union flag - just ask any people who are proud of their heritage, and they'll tell you.

08-03-2005, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

By that token the Bible or Koran are 'just books' and nothing to get worked up over either.

As an aetheist I would apply that argument to all religions. To me they are "just books", some of the most popular fiction in the world today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

We are arguing that it is a sufficiently worthwhile representation of the UK to warrant more respect than it gets.

And this is not only true of the Union flag - just ask any people who are proud of their heritage, and they'll tell you.

Ok, then justify why a piece of cloth deserves respect? Surely it should be the factors that it represents that deserve respect?
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham

Oops, there *ARE* no pictures of Allah, nor indeed of Mohammed because such things are proscribed by Islam...!!!

In fact, I guess that if you were to burn a picture of Allah it would be looked upon positively as you are destroying a forbidden image.

Xaccers · 08-03-2005, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Ok, then justify why a piece of cloth deserves respect? Surely it should be the factors that it represents that deserve respect?

Or is it that the cloth represents those factors which should be respected and therefore in turn it too should be respected?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

In fact, I guess that if you were to burn a picture of Allah it would be looked upon positively as you are destroying a forbidden image.

However printing a passage from the koran on something which is designed to be thrown away is offensive (as McDonalds found out when they inlcuded the Saudi Flag on their paper bags during a previous olympics)

08-03-2005, 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Or is it that the cloth represents those factors which should be respected and therefore in turn it too should be respected?

So, as I have been arguing, the flag itself does not have anything intrinsic about it to be respected, so therefore I don`t see why I should respect it.

08-03-2005, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

As an aetheist I would apply that argument to all religions. To me they are "just books", some of the most popular fiction in the world today.

Exactly. To you they are. But you wanted to know why so many people other than you got in a lather about these things.
I'm sure there are things you believe in you wouldn't tolerate others making light of. And if not, then more pity you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Ok, then justify why a piece of cloth deserves respect? Surely it should be the factors that it represents that deserve respect?

Sometimes the symbol of respect is equally important as the respect itself.

Do you not shake someone's hand when you meet them? Why do you do that?

It's only a symbol that you are not holding your sword - i.e. you're not armed, and hence your approach is peaceful. But it can also mean much more: http://www.canoe.ca/LifewiseWorkOffice00/handshake.html

So by showing enough respect to the flag not to burn it, means you at least recognise the values it represents.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

In fact, I guess that if you were to burn a picture of Allah it would be looked upon positively as you are destroying a forbidden image.

Which reminds me...

Mummy: What's that you're drawing George

George: God

Mummy: But no-one knows what God looks like!

George: They will when I'm finished.

me283 · 08-03-2005, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

So, as I have been arguing, the flag itself does not have anything intrinsic about it to be respected, so therefore I don`t see why I should respect it.

So just because you don't respect it, it's OK to burn it? What about the millions of Britons who DO respect it, who might find the burning offensive? And what about the many that fought for the flag, and died? Sorry you don't respect the flag, but I do.