Does ntl offer a viable product any more?

[steven_azari]

ok just to sum this all up -

1st of all the 8mb connections will need to go through fibre optic cable, which bt are going to invest in laying down across the UK. Think about how long its taken NTL to install their network - thats how long it will take BT. For those that know, ADSL cant sustain a clear channel over a telephone line as the signal cant hold through the wiring.

2nd of all, NTL can match that speed, but dont need to just yet and cant as its not competitive business for other companies.

3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.

4th of all, we still dont know what UPLOAD speeds will be in use. This is an important factor for gamers (which is one of the most important type customers out there). Both NTL and BT have a big problem when the power companies come, as well as all the ISP's out there that deal with their customers.

My brother works for BT retail (the company that provides ADSL capabilities to ISP's such as AOL) and says they are all very concerned about power companies because at the moment, UK technology evolves around ADSL and cable internet. and setting up an SDSL server would cost the company more than they would make from it.

and I know NTL cant sustain a high upload speed compared to SDSL.

In regards to the Digital TV.

The channels are owned by sky and NTL make no profit from this service.

with the telephone service, We are a good service, but when problems arise (just like every company out there) it can take time to be resolved, especially when we are in the middle of a huge upgrade on our systems.

[scrotnig]

All i will say on this subject is this. I know that all is not perfect within ntl, in fact there is quite a bit wrong, that's well known and ackowledged.

However, forget for a moment who anyone works for. I have, in my house, all three ntl services. TV, telephone and broadband. They never, and I'll repeat that, never, let me down. The quality of the product is well within what one would expect from such a service. the full price of that service is one I would always be happy to pay.

(I do feel that digital TV GENERALLY...be it Sky, ntl or Telewest...is slightly overpriced these days, mainly due to the stranglehold on the market Sky has, but that's for another thread).

If the service was rubbish in any way I simply wouldn't use it. I need services I can rely on. That's the long and the short of it. I am not pretending there aren't issues in some areas and/or with some customers, however, that's the picture as I see it from a customer's point of view and whilst I certainly wouldn't say all is rosy at ntl, I certainly wouldn't rate them as badly as some on here do.

[Ignition]

Hi Steven, welcome.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

ok just to sum this all up -

1st of all the 8mb connections will need to go through fibre optic cable, which bt are going to invest in laying down across the UK. Think about how long its taken NTL to install their network - thats how long it will take BT. For those that know, ADSL cant sustain a clear channel over a telephone line as the signal cant hold through the wiring.

Yes it can and no BT won't need fibre, my phone line will do 8Mbit down 800k up. Just to reach it out farther it'll require fibre in the loop.

2nd of all, NTL can match that speed, but dont need to just yet and cant as its not competitive business for other companies.

Bluntly, no we can't. No cable company ntl's size has tried. Only one operator I know of has made 10Mbit remotely successful. Cogeco who I formerly praised are having some, erm, bandwidth issues.

3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.

Not a chance. SSE have all but abandoned this technology, having managed the princely sum of about 80 customers in Winchester and Stonehaven.

4th of all, we still dont know what UPLOAD speeds will be in use. This is an important factor for gamers (which is one of the most important type customers out there). Both NTL and BT have a big problem when the power companies come, as well as all the ISP's out there that deal with their customers.

A 2Mbit ADSL line will almost certainly sustain an upstream of 512k.

My brother works for BT retail (the company that provides ADSL capabilities to ISP's such as AOL) and says they are all very concerned about power companies because at the moment, UK technology evolves around ADSL and cable internet. and setting up an SDSL server would cost the company more than they would make from it.

Strange, as BT Retail are only responsible for the BT Broadband range, and want to escape from BT Wholesale, who are the people who actually sell the network capacity, as it's costing them too much.

Power companies apart from SSE have done nothing in this regard, and with ADSL being so widespread there's no point, too many technical issues. Stonehaven and Winchester are still just experiments, a rollout commercially requires a lot of interest in a small area, and is completely pointless because to be honest a wireless antenna stuck on top of a substation would do a far better job, and be cheaper to the power company as well as having a longer range.

and I know NTL cant sustain a high upload speed compared to SDSL.

In regards to the Digital TV.

The channels are owned by sky and NTL make no profit from this service.

with the telephone service, We are a good service, but when problems arise (just like every company out there) it can take time to be resolved, especially when we are in the middle of a huge upgrade on our systems.

Actually when going up in speeds we could go to 1MBit upload, however market forces don't require it.

Don't get me wrong though, while BT's copper network can do 8Mbit their ATM network it's built around would cry

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Ignition

<Snip>

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by steven_azari

<snip>
3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.
<snip>

Actually, further to Ignition's post above, I thought that BB through powerlines was only able to sustain high speeds if you are a) close to the local substation (by close, I mean within a mile) and b) on a substation with few users.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by scastle

Actually, further to Ignition's post above, I thought that BB through powerlines was only able to sustain high speeds if you are a) close to the local substation (by close, I mean within a mile) and b) on a substation with few users.

Actually the range to local 'substation' or wherever the signal is injected is a couple of hundred metres. Power lines are an appauling compromise. They are neither balanced, insulated, nor in any way remotely suited to carrying data. Compare this to hybrid fibre coax network for speed, and twisted pair for balanced signal.

With DSL and cable modem covering virtually 100% by end of next year there's absolutely no incentive for a power company to invest. Competition too strong, not enough areas to cover.

[ProfPete]

Originally Posted by steven_azari

1st of all the 8mb connections will need to go through fibre optic cable, which bt are going to invest in laying down across the UK.

Wrong. ADSL is capable of approx 8meg down, 768k up, to around 2km line length (depends on quality). And if you've looked at the 21CN information, you'd realise that they were replacing the CORE network, and only trialling fibre delivery. For information, ADSL was trialled as far back as 1997, possibly even further. Look how long that took to reach the market.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

Think about how long its taken NTL to install their network - thats how long it will take BT.

8mbps ADSL is available via LLU NOW.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

For those that know, ADSL cant sustain a clear channel over a telephone line as the signal cant hold through the wiring.

As above, it can do 8mbps out to 2km. Line loss and noise are a factor, but are just as much of a factor in coaxial or wireless networks. Other forms of DSL can already do over 50mbps out to this distance.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

2nd of all, NTL can match that speed, but dont need to just yet and cant as its not competitive business for other companies.

NTL would have trouble matching it as the network stands. DOCSIS doesn't handle contention very well, especially not on the upstream path. Its technically possible, but would not be very robust without Layer 4-7 QoS and throttling.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.

4th of all, we still dont know what UPLOAD speeds will be in use. This is an important factor for gamers (which is one of the most important type customers out there). Both NTL and BT have a big problem when the power companies come, as well as all the ISP's out there that deal with their customers.

Total b0110cks. Powerline suffers worse noise issues than BT's twisted pair copper. You have to be within 500metres of your substation to get those speeds. Powerline signals CANNOT pass a transformer, it is physically impossible. You have to provide fibre to the substation, at massive cost. Even more cost where the transformer is on a pole outside your house (not too uncommon, even just a few miles outside of cities).

Don't forget - the current powerline systems actually use SDSL deployed over copper leased lines provided by BT!!

Oh, and its a shared loop like NTL's system. NTL can resegment to remove problem contention though... I'd like to see resegmentation of the power network... massive engineering works, and prolonged power outages... no thanks...

Oh, and don't get me started on interference.

Originally Posted by steven_azari

My brother works for BT retail (the company that provides ADSL capabilities to ISP's such as AOL) and says they are all very concerned about power companies because at the moment, UK technology evolves around ADSL and cable internet. and setting up an SDSL server would cost the company more than they would make from it.

Cut the cr@p will you. BT Retail only sell BT Broadband, and now BT Yahoo. BT Wholesale provide services to other ISPs.

"SDSL Server" ??? Do you mean a service? Servers don't provide connections - they provide content (or network services such as DNS). Most DSLAMs that have been installed in the last year are capable of delivering SDSL and VDSL with minimal configuration change. Just BT's copper can't cope with it.

You might want to read today's OFCOM report - it makes interesting reading.

Perhaps you might want to go and familiarise yourself with some radio frequency knowledge (RF) before you go spurting off here again. Hint, look up modulation, especially QAM, and QPSK.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by ProfPete

Other forms of DSL can already do over 50mbps out to this distance.

As payback for your rather harsh smackdown, no! No form of DSL does 50Mbps at 2km, 200 metres maybe

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Ignition

Actually the range to local 'substation' or wherever the signal is injected is a couple of hundred metres. Power lines are an appauling compromise. They are neither balanced, insulated, nor in any way remotely suited to carrying data. Compare this to hybrid fibre coax network for speed, and twisted pair for balanced signal.

Actually, I was being generous and assuming no sources of interferance, and a cable in perfect condition..

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Ignition

As payback for your rather harsh smackdown, no! No form of DSL does 50Mbps at 2km, 200 metres maybe

I would have thought 200 millimeters would be closer

Certainally the theoretical maximum of ADSL in this country at present is 8Mbs and that isnt garunteed. Until major work is done thats the lot.

[Stuart]

One point several people here appear to be missing.

Yes, ADSL can theoretically go up to 8 Meg assuming the exchange has been unbundled and you have a good connection to it that is less than 2Km long. Yes, Power lines can carry 2 Meg Up & down, assuming there are few people attached to your connection point, and you live within 200 metres of it.

However, these technologies can only deliver the high speeds to a few people.

NTL are making the increased broadband speeds available to EVERYONE who can get broadband, not just those near an unbundled exchange or their local power substation.

[DVS]

VDSL - Very high speed Digital Subscriber Line

VDSL is a new technology not expected to be in use in public networks for some years. Its expected to provide speeds as high as 52 Mbps downstream and between 1.5 and 2.3 Mbps upstream, but over shorter distances than ADSL - 1.3 km at 13 Mbps and 0.3 km at 52 Mps. Note that by deploying higher performance lines from exchanges to street cabinets, these speeds could be delivered to more homes.

200 Metres wasn't a bad guess although you where 100M's out

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by DVS

200 Metres wasn't a bad guess although you where 100M's out

Not really, according to the IEC 52Mbps downstream and 6Mbps upstream has a theoretical maximum loop length of 1,000ft. when compensating also for the thicker guage cable that this figure is based on you're left with a range around the 200M mark, not to mention this takes no account of cross talk with other twisted pairs carrying ADSL, VDSL, IDSL or SHDSL, nor environmental impairments, so if anything 200m is about right or optimistic

Type asymmetric
Max Loop Length (kft @ 26 guage cable) 1
Downstream 52Mbps
Upstream 6 Mbps

More info: http://www.iec.org/online/tutorials/vdsl/topic05.html

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by steven_azari

ok just to sum this all up -

1st of all the 8mb connections will need to go through fibre optic cable, which bt are going to invest in laying down across the UK. Think about how long its taken NTL to install their network - thats how long it will take BT. For those that know, ADSL cant sustain a clear channel over a telephone line as the signal cant hold through the wiring.

2nd of all, NTL can match that speed, but dont need to just yet and cant as its not competitive business for other companies.

3rd BB through power lines should be coming out 2005 giving SDSL capabilities and speeds of around 2 meg down and up for around 24.99.

4th of all, we still dont know what UPLOAD speeds will be in use. This is an important factor for gamers (which is one of the most important type customers out there). Both NTL and BT have a big problem when the power companies come, as well as all the ISP's out there that deal with their customers.

My brother works for BT retail (the company that provides ADSL capabilities to ISP's such as AOL) and says they are all very concerned about power companies because at the moment, UK technology evolves around ADSL and cable internet. and setting up an SDSL server would cost the company more than they would make from it.

and I know NTL cant sustain a high upload speed compared to SDSL.

In regards to the Digital TV.

The channels are owned by sky and NTL make no profit from this service.

with the telephone service, We are a good service, but when problems arise (just like every company out there) it can take time to be resolved, especially when we are in the middle of a huge upgrade on our systems.

BB down power lines (PLT) has been one of my pet hates that I have gone on about in threads before. I understand they recently turned off one of their pylon routes that was carrying B on the trial and the RF noise floor in the HF spectrum reduced by around 30dB. (figure from memory of reading independant article)

I seem to remember having 99.9% of the users on this forum against my views when I rubbished the technology because of it's unscreened cables and poor balance at HF frequencies. Balanced networks carrying HF need suitable designed cables to ensure balance is maintained to reduce Ingress/Egress.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Neil

<Michael Winner Voice>Calm down dear-I was referring to the ntl speed increases that they announced in April this year. </Michael Winner Voice>
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...peed-increases

Indeed, we could all ask Chris T when ADSL will be coming soon to his non cabled new property. I believe the answer currently is never, I think he would be happy with 512k BB, but cannot even get that without a satelite.