NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.

Not always. I personally have been very critical of NTL in the past, and so has Neil.

As far as I am concerned, if NTL do wrong, they should be critcised. No point in criticising them if they haven't done anything wrong.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

Umm, ok. Like you have done with this topic IMHO.

Errr no.

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

I'm getting sick of everything I post here being moved and or taken out of context.

Put it in the right place & explain yourself better then.

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

This site used to be NThellworld

Correct.

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.

Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade"

No one is defending anyone here, what's happened is you have made an arse of yourself with the thread you started.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[Chris W]

If the high price is the concern, why not use something like Napster, or Tesco to download music? 79p is not too expensive IMO- much better than £3.99 anyway!

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

Umm, ok. Like you have done with this topic IMHO.

I'm getting sick of everything I post here being moved and or taken out of context. This site used to be NThellworld, and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.

NTL can be legitimately criticised for a lot of things, but they can't be held responsible for the illegal activities of users.

Customers will rightly complain from time to time about poor service or poor company policy because that is something NTL can do something about.

If you expect NTL to police P2P downloads all they can do is give the police a list of all their customers and say that if anyone is found connecting to a P2P site by police, FBI, music and software industry monitoring teams, their service will be disconnected and as the police will have the downloader's details the police can charge them directly.

I think some people would be leaving NTL pretty sharpish if that happened, which isn't good for NTL's business as they would be being punished because users won't accept responsibility for their illegal actions.

Criticise NTL all you wish, just do it realistically and fairly.

[ray_uk]

This is the same old arguement that applies to so many things for example cars and guns can be used to perform theft, however they can both also be used for non criminal/illegal activities.

Originally Posted by Neil

Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade"

[PC_Arcade]

Originally Posted by Neil

Errr no.


Put it in the right place & explain yourself better then.


Correct.


Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade"

No one is defending anyone here, what's happened is you have made an arse of yourself with the thread you started.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

I don't feel as though I've made an arse of myself, all I posted was a quote from the BBC where NTL are accused of supporting illegal P2P activity, I compared that to the fact that last year they were pulled up for advertising spiderman as available for download before it was available on dvd.
Then pointed out that Copyright infringement isn't theft (which it isn't) and then I got critiscised for criticising NTL!
[edit]Although I did maintain that If I download an mp3, that doesn't neccesarily mean I would have bought it, a point which you ignored. Is that what you were referring to when you claim I've "made an ass of myself"?[/edit]

And if you're saying I posted this in the wrong place, where should it have been posted?

But the way I see it NTL advertise on edonkey, which BTW is NOT a website, it's a p2p application, they have in the past advertised their service on the strength of being able to download illegally (which IIRC they were slapped on the wrist for (Yep just checked, informally resolved on the 19th october 2003)). They seem to want to play both sides of the piracy argument,
I find it VERY hard to believe they have no control over where their ads are placed and as they use the same ad agency as telewest (who's ads don't appear on edonkey AFAIK) it strikes me as odd.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by ray_uk

This is the same old arguement that applies to so many things for example cars and guns can be used to perform theft, however they can both also be used for non criminal/illegal activities.

Owning a legally purchased & licensed gun is legal but it can be used illegally as in a murder or robbery.

Owning a legally purchased, licensed, taxed and insured car is legal but it can be used illegally as in speeding etc.

Owning a legally purchased and downloaded MP3 is legal,but it could be used illegally as in infringing noise regulations.

Owning an unpurchased, downloaded MP3 is legal if the MP3 is freeware.

In all other cases owning the MP3 is illegal because it either infringes copyright or is theft, both of which leave you open to legal action.

If you are so confident that it isn't illegal then e-mail one of the record companies and admit downloading MP3s of their songs and see what happens.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by PC_Arcade

<snip>
But the way I see it NTL advertise on edonkey, which BTW is NOT a website, it's a p2p application, they have in the past advertised their service on the strength of being able to download illegally (which IIRC they were slapped on the wrist for (Yep just checked, informally resolved on the 19th october 2003)). They seem to want to play both sides of the piracy argument,
I find it VERY hard to believe they have no control over where their ads are placed and as they use the same ad agency as telewest (who's ads don't appear on edonkey AFAIK) it strikes me as odd.

Erm, I believe the article you posted referred to eDonkey as a website.. I don't think anyone else has.

One final thing, just because NTL and Telewest are using the same ad agency, does NOT mean they advertise in the same places. Has it occured to you that they may just be advertising on doubleclick, or a similar online agency that eDonkey uses to provide adverts. Also, no one said they have no control. In fact, I would say they have control as they have said the adverts will stop. I said they may not have been aware their ads were on eDonkey, which is possible.

[dragon]

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by dragon

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

Hmmmmm. So as long as you don't take a physical object it is alright then?

It's OK to climb over the football ground wall to avoid paying the £20 entance fee?

It's OK to forge £50 notes as you are not taking anything?

It's OK to view TV without a TV licence as you are not taking anything?

Artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of music not to make $$$. Get real, for most of them it's their job and they need to get paid in order to live. On the same priciple should actors, footballers, etc do the job for love? Should you do your job for the love of it and not get paid?

Are you bothered about how many people would be out of work if music was only available via download? Are you bothered about the vast majority of people (most people don't have PC's or other download hardware) who could never own any music if it was only available via download. Or are you only bothered about yourself and what you can get for nothing?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by dragon

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.

OK. Look at it this way. Imagine you design watches for a living. You spend months designing and building a watch, that is so amazingly different to everyone else. You have spend thousands of pounds developing it. You decide to build and market it yourself, spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of borrowed money in the process.

Now, some git decides to copy it. He has spent nothing developing the watch, and the factories he uses are sweatshops in some small Indian village, so his costs are a small fraction of yours, and he can sell an exact duplicate of your watch for 95% less and still make a profit. You lose trade. You go bankrupt, but still have hundreds of thousands of pounds of money to pay back.

That's why we need copyright laws. To protect innovators.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

You can set up a band for next to nothing. You could probably fully kit out an average band (2 Guitarists, 1 Keyboard Player, 1 Drummer and 1 Singer) for around £3000 to £4000. This would get you a band that could play live gigs.

Now, add recording studio time (which can be £100s an hour) for recording an album. Assuming the bands where distributing online, you can also add ISP costs (which can get quite expensive as you would need a commercial hosting package, and if you have 2000 people download an MP3, that will consume an awful lot of bandwidth and extra bandwidth costs money). That would probably be covered by the download fees charged to listeners.

The problem comes when a band's music doesn't sell well. They still have the fixed costs (studio time etc), but their takings from downloads may not cover those. What record companies have done in the past is to cover these losses with the profits from other bands. This, incidentally, is how funding works in all media industries. For instance, in Hollywood, they may spend £70 or £80 million on a Blockbuster movie, but that may generate £500m to £1bn in profits, which can then be spent on filming 50 to 100 smaller films. BTW, before you say Hollywood doesn't do this, it does. Hollywood produces anywhere up to 150 movies a week, and a small percentage of these are hits.

In today's increasingly commercial music industry, there are also the marketing costs, and video cost, which also need to be covered from somewhere.

In short, we do need record companies..

[dragon]

My point wasnt that well put what i was trying to say is why should we pay for 13quid or whatever for a cd when we probably only want 1 track on it...

and even singles are 4quid and you prob only want one track on them

maybe when LEgal download stores are cheap, and not so ridden with DRM that its hell to copy the file for personal use then more people would pay for music....

p2p will be around for at least the forseeable future Sueing out of people is not the anwser lowing prices is!

Also as someone pointed out p2p itself is not illegal its what people do with it that is.


i can understand Bands wanting to earn a living what i dont like is paying though the nose for a song just so some record company executive gets millions of $$$.


also i wouldnt nick the rolex or get a fake id just buy a cheaper watch from another brand

you can pay 5quid for a watch or 5000 but both will tell you the time.

I think i can see why people download from p2p its because they can get what they want for free and most of them probably dont care if its legal or not.

another thing is i think more software should come with at least a 2 machine licence as standard as with the falling costs of technology more and more people have a laptop and a desktop..