Israel's losing the plot - Page 4

TigaSefi · 18-08-2003, 17:00

Quote:

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?

I have lived there for 4 years and I have to say THEY do protest for peace, they DO protest that the government should be more pro active in stopping the circle of violence however it doesn't not get reported on. They do have concerts/protests/marches for peace. These are normally arranged by the young generation who try and get out of Army Service. As they are the younger generation the gov't only pays lip service to them. Why don't the older generation protests ? I don't know.

Mark W · 18-08-2003, 17:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. Every post I've made has mentioned peace, not once have you shown any genuine concern for peace in the region.

One can only assume that you want war to continue. But this is not what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.

I ask once more what will YOU do to encourage PEACE in the region?
This is the issue that matters.

yes, you do mention peace - but seem to think that the israeli govt are doing all they can and its all the palestinians fault there isnt any....

as has been said, it was those 'palestinian terrorists' that offered the ceasefire in the first place. a ceasefire the israeli govt/IDF said they were not interested in, and subsequentially broke by carrying out a hamfisted assassination.

what needs to be done? the israeli's said they would not do anything till there was a stop in the suicide bombings.
The militia groups unanimously agreed to this (eventually), and stood by it. Did israel embrace this? no. they publicly said that didnt matter a damn and would still carry out attacks on the militia groups - hardly constructive??

so. once the militia groups have proved they are willing to give peace a go - and they HAVE, the next step is for the israeli govt to move out of palestinian cities, stop building that bloody fence and stop building settlements on palestinian land.

Thats not far fetched. thats part of the peace plan that was put forward, the plan BOTH sides agreed to. The militia groups stood by their end of the bargain. Its seems the israeli's are unwilling to stand by theirs....

oh, and TigaSefi is right. I dont have a problem with the israeli people as such, as it seems ALOT are horrified by their govt's flat refusal to do anything constructive towards peace.
Sadly the govt is run by a man wanted for war crimes againsed palestinians, who built his military career on 'incidents' non compliant with the geneva convention againsed arabs, and who places more importance on the fanatical few israelis who feel that they have a right to do what they want in palestinian land (ie build settlements) as its their 'god given right' to do so.

Personally, i feel the US should stop the military aid to israel, and have the UN place peacekeepers in the country....only then will both sides get a fair deal.....

18-08-2003, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?

See:

Israel's committment to peace

Israel wants peace and is committed to peace.

Israel has proposed the handover of control of further West Bank towns to the Palestinian leadership. Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to carry out its commitments under the roadmap and to begin the dismantlement of the terror infrastructure which is a threat and an obstacle towards peace.

So timewarrior2001, how do you see the peace process developing, what can you do to help the region find peace.

Mark W · 18-08-2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
See:

Israel's committment to peace

Israel wants peace and is committed to peace.

go take a look at the BNP's website - whats written there makes them look like veritable angels.

I suggest that you place more faith in what people DO than what they SAY....

as for the israeli's offering to hand over towns - well, gee whizz.....
they occupy cities they had no right to occupy, and then offer them back as though they are doing the Authority a favour

if you look HERE you'll see that its been delayed, as the IDF have refused to dismantle checkpoint(s) outside the cities. this goes againsed the agreement made earlier between Palestinian security chief Dahlan and Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz

but then the israeli's are good at going back on their word.

Mark W · 18-08-2003, 18:21

as an aside, try reading this about the views of jewish settlers living on palestinian land....

some extracts :-

Quote:

According to a recent survey of settlers by the Jerusalem-based Harry S Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, nearly 40% of Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza Strip live there out of a belief in a divinely ordained mission to inhabit the land.

Quote:

We don't feel threatened by the roadmap," he said. "I believe this land is for us and I start from the Bible.

"We don't worry about what President Bush or Tony Blair says, for sure. We just have to continue living here and strengthening the place. That's the reality....

I think that it is THESE people who are one of the main obstacles of peace....

historically Great Britain ruled north america, australia and india, we dont anymore. we cant simply demand it again as a right just because once they were ours, so how can they?

18-08-2003, 19:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark W
go take a look at the BNP's website - whats written there makes them look like veritable angels.

Do not insult me with such references. Insults are all that you are left with.

I can only assume that you favour war in middle east and not peace.

End of dialouge.

Mark W · 18-08-2003, 19:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
Do not insult me with such references. Insults are all that you are left with.

I can only assume that you favour war in middle east and not peace.

End of dialouge.

lol, it wasnt meant as an insult - simply highlighting that people will say things they know want to be heard....

yes, i DO want peace, but not at the cost of the palestinian people becoming cowed, frightened and second class citizens in their own land. If they have to fight to stop that from happening, then so be it.
Sometimes you have to fight for want you belive in, and what is rightfully yours....

Xaccers · 18-08-2003, 22:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors. But frankly, when palestinian terrorists hide amongst civilian population what can Israel do? The Palestinian Authority must act but doesn't. Israel must respond hunt down the palestinian terrorists and deal with them.

The Israeli gov spokesperson that was interviewed on Radio 4 had no remorse.
His attitude was they were palestinian children who were in the way of the target, so what if they died?

Now most countries with terrorism problems, like the UK, try to keep the moral high ground, going after the terrorists and arresting them whenever possible.
From what I have been told by my Israeli friends, and what I have seen on the news (which is not objective I know, but that doesn't mean it's lies), the IDF are more than willing to kill a few civilians so long as they are palestinians and it gets their target in the end. The argument seems to be something like "the target has killed 40 Israelis, so 5 palestinians killed to get to the target is a small price".

As for demanding that the palestinians sort out the terrorists, that's a bit hard when the next day you take out their infrastructure and ability to do so.

20-08-2003, 13:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
So timewarrior2001, how do you see the peace process developing, what can you do to help the region find peace.

All I can do to help peace in the middle east is to help keep pressure on Israel to keep to the agreements it signs.
If any country breaks agreement like Israel does then repercussions happen.
I could and I probably will start writting lieeters to my local MP demanding the british governemnt do more to stop Israeli attacks on innocent women and children by making Israel stick to its treaties etc. The Israeli Gov has taken the p*ss out of the UN for far too long now and its time somehting was done about it.
Same goes for the palistinians if they continue to attack Israel even in retaliation then they shall suffer the same consequences.

As far as I am concerned Israel has proven itself to be an agressor and if the Prime minister is wanted for war crimes he should be arrested by the UN and made to stand trail in a neutral country.

TigaSefi · 20-08-2003, 15:05

well another bomb gone off, scores of Israelis killed and Israelis shut the borders, palestinians complains, we get the terrorists, border open, suicide bomb, ad infinitum......

Ramrod · 20-08-2003, 15:32

I notice that the palestinians have killed 5 more Israeli children (amongst others)