Bible Questions

but the bible is just a text, does it offer any actual proof? As Chris T put it 'saying something doesnt make it so' it is all a matter of faith. People who believe in the theory about the church changing it have as much crediblity as those who belive in the traditional version of events.

(P.S I dont have any religious belifs, just curious really)

Originally Posted by Damien

You know, technincally, you dont have any proof your version of events happened either. It is a matter of your own belifs but saying to someone that they dont have any proof isnt really gonna get us anywhere

I know you're trying to be 'peacemaker', but trying to level the argument in that way really won't do. Technically, I do have proof. It's a very big book called the Bible, that nobody has successfully debunked in more than 1,500 years. Getting stuck on this point is what's going to stop us getting anywhere. Now, if someone wants to come in and say, you can't rely on the Bible because of 'x', and here is why 'x' is a credible claim to make", well then, we can maybe get somewhere.

(But not me, 'cos it's our 5th wedding anniversary, the babysitter's just arrived and we're off out for dinner ... c ya later! )

no one has succesfully disproved the bible but no-one has proved it either, and considering the claims and the follow implications then proof is sorta important for non-belivers. Yet again the bible is a matter of faith not of fact

Because of that the bible cant be used as proof for either side, it is part of the faith, if you havent got the faith in it then it wont be accpeted as proof.

I wanted to talk about the two theorys and debate them but not one side automatically dismissing the other side for lack of proof, we will find out when we are dead.

I bet i will go to hell for starting this topic....

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Chris T

(But not me, 'cos it's our 5th wedding anniversary, the babysitter's just arrived and we're off out for dinner ... c ya later! )

Don't leave me alone with them!!

(happy anniversary btw )

Originally Posted by Damien

no one has succesfully disproved the bible but no-one has proved it either, and considering the claims and the follow implications then proof is sorta important for non-belivers.

Agreed but when you have a) so many prominant historians who will publically state they can find nothing to counter any of the Bible's claims, b) archeologists who cannot find any descoveries which prove any of it wrong and c) scientists throughout history who have faith in the Bible, it then becomes easier to place trust in it.

put yourself in a netual position though, now think though the events of jesus (god exsits somewhere but we cant see it, virgin mary, jesus miricles, and the coming back from the dead) and then think that all of this comes from the bible, one book. You must see that without faith its difficult to accept

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

put yourself in a netual position though, now think though the events of jesus (god exsits somewhere but we cant see it, virgin mary, jesus miricles, and the coming back from the dead) and then think that all of this comes from the bible, one book. You must see that without faith its difficult to accept

Yes and that's why it took me 27 years to be born-again. People don't usually just decide to become Christians, more often than not it comes after a particular experience, something which happens which they know has come from God. I've always said that people don't just fall in to Christianity. Faith won't just comes to you, you have to seek it. For example if someone wanted to have belief but just couldn't manage it for whatever reason, my advice would be to pray to God, ask Him in to your life. If you TRULY want Him to demonstrate His love for you then He will make himself known. If on the other hand your intention is to find fault in Christianity with a "I prayed and I knew He wouldn't answer, and he didn't" attitude then that is bound to fail. Approach God with an open heart and mind and He will never ignore you.

Originally Posted by Damien

no one has succesfully disproved the bible but no-one has proved it either, and considering the claims and the follow implications then proof is sorta important for non-belivers. Yet again the bible is a matter of faith not of fact

The Bible is a matter of faith in the same sense that everything in life is a matter of faith. I have faith that when I sit on a chair it won't collapse under me; I have faith that the drivers around me on the M1 won't decide to go mental during my drive to work in the morning and run me off the road (prolly misplaced faith, actually, that one but you get the idea).

I think you have made a very good point though. I could prove a chair safe to sit on before doing so, if I chose to apply certain logical, scientific principles and check it out first, thus removing the need for faith. The Bible, on the other hand, makes some extraordinary claims. You can, to a degree, check out the Bible itself and establish that it is a historically reliable document. It is still a step further, however, to actually believe the things it says, because miracles are by their definition beyond the ability of science to explain, and we live in a society in which science is venerated with quasi-medieval fervour (if it appears to be unscientific, attack it as some kind of heresy ).

The usual attempt to explain a miracle was mentioned earlier, (a match shown to a caveman would naturally be seen by the caveman to be a miracle). This misses the point. Jesus was not a time traveller. He did not claim to be an advanced scientist. He claimed to be endowed with divine power and authority, and this is a radically different explanation of what a miracle is: God invented the laws of physics, they only continue to hold sway because he chooses that it should be so, and having an existence outside of his creation, and not dependent upon it for anything, he can violate the laws of physics any time he chooses. If somebody is capable of creating an entire universe simply by saying 'let there be light', then it is a small thing to bring a dead person back to life or to multiply a few loaves of bread and feed a crowd of people.

Because of that the bible cant be used as proof for either side, it is part of the faith, if you havent got the faith in it then it wont be accpeted as proof.

I think your logic falls a little flat here. This is because, I think, you treat faith as a kind of poor cousin in relation to science. It appears that you reject the notion of faith as a valid path to understanding something. Faith, for a Christian, is a step along the road, not the goal in itself. Faith is the act of placing your bum on the chair and trusting in the skill of the carpenter and the laws of physics, not the enjoyment of being in the chair for an evening with your friends. Certain things about my religion I still take on faith as they remain beyond my experience - a place in heaven when I die for example, as I haven't died yet. Others have already passed beyond faith. I know God is real, for example, just as I know you are real.

I wanted to talk about the two theorys and debate them but not one side automatically dismissing the other side for lack of proof, we will find out when we are dead.

Without challenging each other for proof, it's difficult to progress the debate beyond the opening statements of 'I believe this,' and 'I believe that'. What you're after, in that case, isn't a debate, but a creative writing workshop, in which you can say whatever you like and it doesn't really matter whether you can back it up. Creative writing is fun, but not in this context.

I bet i will go to hell for starting this topic....

No you won't, any more than I'm not going to Hell despite telling my parents at the age of 15 that there is no God and I didn't want to have anything to do with church any more. God's response to that was, "Are you sure? well if you really want to know about it, I can show you." And he did. I truly believe that if you look at it with an open mind he will show you too (and anyone else). If, on the other hand, you're just interested in arguing or point scoring (I'm not saying that you are), then you will probably get what you're looking for.

Good points.

Thing is:

1) If there is a god then why does he care what people belive? Will he send people to hell for not beliving?

2) The way we think of god 'he' and the fact that he seems to have logical thought requires a human brain, which also throws me a bit as if there is a god he has been there long before man. What makes us so special? I understand he created us in his own image i have trouble accepting that we are so important in the grand scale of the universe

3) My favorite is the good old start of the universe, if nothing existed, did he? was he 'created' at the start? Where did he come from? What was before? has he been there forever? We wont live forever, our sun will burn out. So does he create people all the time? Are there millions of us on other planets? Is god creating some loop? Maybe god is just the universe itself and everything in it

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Damien

1) If there is a god then why does he care what people belive? Will he send people to hell for not beliving?

a) Because he loves us and b) I went through a stage in my teens when I did not believe and I do not believe I'm heading for hell.

Originally Posted by Damien

2) The way we think of god 'he' and the fact that he seems to have logical thought requires a human brain, which also throws me a bit as if there is a god he has been there long before man. What makes us so special? I understand he created us in his own image i have trouble accepting that we are so important in the grand scale of the universe

What makes us so special? I don't know, again, He created us and loves us. I created my daughter, why do I love her? Because she's mine and no matter what she gets up to, i still love her.

Originally Posted by Damien

3) My favorite is the good old start of the universe, if nothing existed, did he? was he 'created' at the start? Where did he come from? What was before? has he been there forever? We wont live forever, our sun will burn out. So does he create people all the time? Are there millions of us on other planets? Is god creating some loop? Maybe god is just the universe itself and everything in it

Difficult one to answer, the only way the Bible explains this is that God 'always was'. He has no start and no end. To us humans of course this in unfathomable as we are preconditioned to be certain that everything must start and end somewhere but bear in mind God is not subject to the same physical limitations that we are.

[bopdude]

Not a question but something I had in my inbox, from a friend. I thought some of you might like it even though it's not really on topic


THIS ONE IS FABULOUS!!!

It was written by an 8 year old, Danny Dutton of Chula Vista, CA, for his
third grade homework assignment. The assignment was to explain God.I just
wonder if any of us could do as well???

EXPLANATION OF GOD

"One of God's main jobs is making people. He makes them to replace the
ones that die, so there will be enough people to take care of things on
earth.

He doesn't make grownups, just babies. I think because they are smaller
and easier to make. That way he doesn't have to take up his valuable time
teaching them to talk and walk. He can just leave that to mothers and
fathers."
"God's second most important job is listening to prayers. An awful lot of
this goes on, since some people, like preachers and things, pray at times
beside bedtime. God doesn't have time to listen to the radio or TV because
of this. Because he hears everything, there must be a terrible lot of noise
in his ears, unless he has thought of a way to turn it off."

"God sees everything and hears everything and is everywhere, which keeps
Him pretty busy. So you shouldn't go wasting his time by going over your mom
and dad's head asking for something they said you couldn't have."

"Atheists are people who don't believe in God. I don't think there are any
in Chula Vista. At least there aren't any who come to our church."

"Jesus is God's Son. He used to do all the hard work like walking on water
and performing miracles and trying to teach the people who didn't want to
learn about God. They finally got tired of him preaching to them and they
crucified Him. But He was good and kind, like his father, and he told His
Father that they didn't know what they were doing and to forgive them and
God said O.K."

"His dad (God) appreciated everything that he had done and all his Hard
work on earth so he told him he didn't have to go out on the road anymore.
He could stay in heaven. So he did And now he helps His Dad out by listening
to prayers and seeing things which are important for God to take care of and
which ones he can take care of himself without having to bother God. Like a
secretary, only more important."

"You can pray anytime you want and they are sure to help you because they
got it worked out so one of them is on duty all the time."

"You should always go to church on Sunday because it makes God happy, and
if there's anybody you want to make happy, it's God.

Don't skip church or do something you think will be more fun like going to
the beach . This is wrong. And besides the sun doesn't come out until noon
anyway."

"If you don't believe in God, besides being an atheist, you will be very
lonely, because your parents can't go everywhere with you, like to camp, but
God can. It is good to know He's around you when you're scared, in the dark
or when you can't swim and you get thrown into real deep water by big kids."

"But...you shouldn't just always think of what God can do for you. I
figure God put me here and he can take me back anytime he pleases.
And...that's why I believe in God."

[basa]

Slightly but I liked this comment:

The New Nation takes it further: "Ethiopian Christianity, which pre-dates European Christianity, always depicts Christ as an African and it generally agreed that people of the region where Jesus came from looked nothing like Boris Johnson," the paper says. As light-hearted evidence that Jesus was black, it adds that he "called everybody 'brother', liked Gospel, and couldn't get a fair trial".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3958241.stm

[punky]

Originally Posted by basa

Slightly but I liked this comment:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3958241.stm

Reminded me of an old e-mail that did the rounds a long time ago. I have manage to find it, I hope you all appreciate it because it took me bloody ages

http://www.oxygen.ie/unilife/unilife_ffwd_jesus.php3

And I don't see what all this fuss was about. He was born in Bethlehem, near Jeruselem, which was then Judea, and nowaday Israel. His parents both came from Judea as well, didn't they? He would look like all other Israelis, basically slightly tanned. Halfway between european and deep middle eastern in colour.

[Russ]

Roses are reddish,
Violets are bluish.

If it wasn't for Jesus,
We'd all be Jewish!

[Ramrod]

Anyone read 'The Da Vinci Code'?
..........Interesting ?facts therein regarding the origin of the New Testament, Jesus's relationship with Mary Magdalen, cover-ups and of course, the holy grail.........any comments?