Expand the cable network - Page 4

Escapee · 15-06-2004, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Burns

I know, we haven't had any calls from residents/local authorities complaining about hanging cables, etc.

I didn't realise how far the Metro network went, until we discovered a box hidden under a desk when packing up for the 'move'. I agree that it was a mistake that the network was closed down considering the number of homes it passed. But wasn't the argument that it wasn't making any money?

The original CableTel architecture is basically the current RF spec with a few very minor changes.

There are new developments being made 'cable ready' (In the old 'Celtic' Region anyway can't say for the rest of the country), but ntl will never get into all sites even if they're on build.

The big problem I remember in South Wales was with the Cwmbran Hubsite area, the equipment that the corporate strategy and development team rigidly specified would not reach the 51Km or so from Cardiff Headend to Cwmbran, They specified another product that the manufacturer was unable to get working correctly.
A person (no names) in Cardiff planning team took it on himself to come up with a suitable fix for the problem, I then got involved with trialing this equipment and Cwmbran in fact started off as a few nodes that grew from that trial, there was no interactive capability, ie: no return path network because yet again the specified equipments link budget would not reach all the way to the headend, we actually trialed a forward path DFB optical transmitter to use as a return transmitter. ( approx 10.5dBm compared to return TX's approx 0dBm) This was combined at Newport and re-transmitted
back to Cardiff to enable people to purchase Front row movies and pay per view events on the analogue service.

If we had not done this development work I am sure the esteemed gentlemen at Hook would of done nothing and the area would of ended up with miles of ducts, cabinets and cabling but no TV or eventual broadband services to the area.

Did they thank us for coming up with a solution? Did they hell! the smelly stuff hit the fan as the prima donnas threw their toys out of their prams, they cancelled expenditure fro the backup feed to the area, and thats why Cwmbran has suffered outages lasting long periods on a few occassions because there was no back up facility for the area. I could go as far as to say the guy who made the tricky decision to push forward with the solution to the existing problem actually lost his job over it.

On the other subject yes, Metro were losing money but it was not a very large amount. If the Metro systems had been taken out of ntl they would of made a healthy profit, they were being dragged down by the huge expense created in large companies. They were employing full time accountants and paying extortionate sums to an external company to handle the billing. the company could of been a success with some good management and the closing of a few networks. The manager in charge of the operations was very weak and was unable to make any decisions, he wanted the whole lot to close instead of coming up with plans to turn the company into profit. He actually kept bringing the losses to ntl's attention, something he seemed to rapidly increase when he reached the age of 62 and apparently inherited a large house from an elderly relative.

The networks were closed and 37 jobs were lost because of one greedy man who wanted redundancy for himself!

andrew_wallasey · 15-06-2004, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee

The big problem I remember in South Wales was with the Cwmbran Hubsite area, the equipment that the corporate strategy and development team rigidly specified would not reach the 51Km or so from Cardiff Headend to Cwmbran, They specified another product that the manufacturer was unable to get working correctly.
A person (no names) in Cardiff planning team took it on himself to come up with a suitable fix for the problem, I then got involved with trialing this equipment and Cwmbran in fact started off as a few nodes that grew from that trial, there was no interactive capability, ie: no return path network because yet again the specified equipments link budget would not reach all the way to the headend, we actually trialed a forward path DFB optical transmitter to use as a return transmitter. ( approx 10.5dBm compared to return TX's approx 0dBm) This was combined at Newport and re-transmitted
back to Cardiff to enable people to purchase Front row movies and pay per view events on the analogue service.

If we had not done this development work I am sure the esteemed gentlemen at Hook would of done nothing and the area would of ended up with miles of ducts, cabinets and cabling but no TV or eventual broadband services to the area.

Did they thank us for coming up with a solution? Did they hell! the smelly stuff hit the fan as the prima donnas threw their toys out of their prams, they cancelled expenditure fro the backup feed to the area, and thats why Cwmbran has suffered outages lasting long periods on a few occassions because there was no back up facility for the area. I could go as far as to say the guy who made the tricky decision to push forward with the solution to the existing problem actually lost his job over it.

On the other subject yes, Metro were losing money but it was not a very large amount. If the Metro systems had been taken out of ntl they would of made a healthy profit, they were being dragged down by the huge expense created in large companies. They were employing full time accountants and paying extortionate sums to an external company to handle the billing. the company could of been a success with some good management and the closing of a few networks. The manager in charge of the operations was very weak and was unable to make any decisions, he wanted the whole lot to close instead of coming up with plans to turn the company into profit. He actually kept bringing the losses to ntl's attention, something he seemed to rapidly increase when he reached the age of 62 and apparently inherited a large house from an elderly relative.

The networks were closed and 37 jobs were lost because of one greedy man who wanted redundancy for himself!

So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?

Stu038 · 16-06-2004, 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?

Completely different technologies, with nowhere near the bandwidth available to operate anything other a few analogue channels and radio channels. Also not a hope in hell of the return path thats needed for the PPV, interactive or modem services.

When Leicester Cable took over responsibility for providing the off airs to the hundreds of council flats on the Metro system we had to build new systems in them all.
Caused a few problems in parts of the city when Metro wanted to pull the plug before we had even got to them.

Escapee · 16-06-2004, 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu038

Completely different technologies, with nowhere near the bandwidth available to operate anything other a few analogue channels and radio channels. Also not a hope in hell of the return path thats needed for the PPV, interactive or modem services.

When Leicester Cable took over responsibility for providing the off airs to the hundreds of council flats on the Metro system we had to build new systems in them all.
Caused a few problems in parts of the city when Metro wanted to pull the plug before we had even got to them.

Not true at all, the VHF systems use coax exactly the same as used from ntl's nodes, I think you are tallking about the old HF systems where there was one coax per channel.

The VHF stystems that extended to approx 300MHz could of been easily upgraded by breaking them down into smaller sections (reducing the cascades) and running fibre to the smaller areas, amplifier spacing would need to be looked at because of the increase bandwidth. (ie: higher losses at extended bandwidth) One of the old Metro systems in the Rhondda was actually a 860MHz system installed in the early 90's in some respects the system was more advanced than systems ntl were installing in the late 90's, unfortunately when the company was taken over by ntl progress stopped.

Many of the old HF Rediffusion systems owned by Metro were in a very bad state of repair, but to be fair the VHF systems were not that bad and it was a bad decision taken at the top from advice by a few mid managers to close them. Keeping the systems going and gradually upgrading as they started in southern Ireland would of been the best idea to retain and build on the existing customer base.

These systems would of provided a good basis for Microwave Video Distribution by breaking the networks up into smaller nodal areas if it was not cost affective to fibre to each area.

I bet the guys at the top would of made a different decision if they had been given an unbiased view!

SMHarman · 16-06-2004, 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

So how does it basically work with poles? Is it not possible to extending the ducts and fit tees to peoples homes so its all underground? Or is it in too bad state now whats left if anything?

In the US CATV using similar infrastructure to NTL/TW is strung from poles. Reduces the cost of network build, in the same way they do it for Power and Phone, the only underground service is gas and sewerage, but even there, septic tanks are far more common.

andrew_wallasey · 16-06-2004, 10:18

The point is though, I bet NTL coming and sticking poles in peoples streets there would be a lot of complains. I don't think BT are even allowed to put up new posts for the telephone.

SMHarman · 16-06-2004, 10:35

BT are not, all underground for new build. Makes sense anyway, I imaging Fibre to the Home will not be happy on poles.

The underground build cost is what left the cable networks in this sorry state in the first place. The document I linked to earlier in this thread highlighted the fact that this takes 70+% of the capital investment, leaving less to be invested in the technology. Thus IMHO compared to Sky who lease a Sat, space and invest in the technology platform cable is going to struggle to keep up until the infrastructure build cost becomes a legacy issue (as it effectivly is for BT).

Escapee · 16-06-2004, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMHarman

BT are not, all underground for new build. Makes sense anyway, I imaging Fibre to the Home will not be happy on poles.

The underground build cost is what left the cable networks in this sorry state in the first place. The document I linked to earlier in this thread highlighted the fact that this takes 70+% of the capital investment, leaving less to be invested in the technology. Thus IMHO compared to Sky who lease a Sat, space and invest in the technology platform cable is going to struggle to keep up until the infrastructure build cost becomes a legacy issue (as it effectivly is for BT).

Fibre is available (was a few years ago anyway) with a strain wire fixed to the jacket for enable it to be strung overhead/between poles. fibre between poles would be far more reliable than coax/RF as fibre is not as easily broken by flexing as coax, and does not corrode due to moisture ingress that causes frequency response and high resistance contacts on connectors/joints.

Fibre does not suffer from EMC ingress/egress either, nor does it suffer from moisture ingress like coax does as mentioned above.

Mr_Burns · 16-06-2004, 12:14

Whereas the central strength member used to be steel, it's now nylon in the cables we're supplied with.

Escapee · 16-06-2004, 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Burns

Whereas the central strength member used to be steel, it's now nylon in the cables we're supplied with.

Advances in technolgy

andrew_wallasey · 16-06-2004, 15:05

Do NTL have fibre to all the CABs or just the big ones which are about 4/5 foot tall.

andrew_wallasey · 16-06-2004, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee

Advances in technolgy

Certainly it would be interesting to see if the advances in technology would enable better networks to be built if any are dont in the future.