30-12-2019, 22:19
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#46
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
I have no major issues with TLJ, however there are some points set up in TFA that were totally shat all over and dismissed totally, that they had to retcon or ignore or gloss over in TROS. Smoke was building up to be this big bad and then just killed off. Same with Phasma.
I really enjoyed TROS and thought it ended the Saga really well. The final scene was especially moving and really well done.
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Yes, I get that some stuff from The Force Awakens ultimately didn’t survive to the end of The Last Jedi. But to suggest these were simply dismissed or dumped on is to completely miss the point The Last Jedi was making. There are plenty of things within The Last Jedi that are set up and pulled down again - it is a deliberate motif, deployed in order to force the viewer out of their comfort zone. We were 8 films in at that point and the hardcore fanboys were behaving like they already knew exactly what was going on.
Luke, and then Yoda, turn Jedi lore on its head by suggesting that the Force might actually be accessible to all and then burning down the temple, but Rey still escapes Luke’s planet with the ancient books, and in The Rise of Skywalker
Admiral Holdo is presented as an inadequate leader who will ultimately have to be deposed by the hero Poe Dameron, only to be revealed as an astute tactician who is forced to kick the impulsive, short-sighted Dameron out of her way in order to save the last of the resistance fighters.
The first confrontation in The Last Jedi involves an evacuation that looks exactly like the one from the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back, except this time they don’t escape.
The final confrontation, on Crait, is set up to look exactly like Hoth, except the plain is blanketed in salt, not ice (salt destroys ice ) overlying a mineral that looks like blood; not a single First Order AT-AT is taken down and Finn’s heroic attack run is forcibly halted by Rose.
Time and time again, The Last Jedi sets up sci-fi tropes (usually tropes that have previously been employed within the franchise itself) and then knocks them down.
Last edited by Chris; 30-12-2019 at 22:36.
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30-12-2019, 22:33
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#47
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Bah Humbug!!
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
I think as well, people weren't happy with the Rose character in TLJ and then also incensed that she was notably missing for most or Rise. However that was due to her sharing a lot of her screen time with Leia in the base, but of course much of that was scrubbed due to the passing of Carrie Fisher. Abrahams himself confirmed that in a recent interview.
Yes there are a few plot holes remaining and a dw little niggles I had with the full trilogy,but at the end of the day, they are minor things and do not stop me enjoying the 3 films.
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30-12-2019, 22:49
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#48
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
I think as well, people weren't happy with the Rose character in TLJ and then also incensed that she was notably missing for most or Rise. However that was due to her sharing a lot of her screen time with Leia in the base, but of course much of that was scrubbed due to the passing of Carrie Fisher. Abrahams himself confirmed that in a recent interview.
Yes there are a few plot holes remaining and a dw little niggles I had with the full trilogy,but at the end of the day, they are minor things and do not stop me enjoying the 3 films.
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Nail. Head. Hit. Where The Rise of Skywalker comes across as just a little imbalanced, it’s much more likely due to their having to repurpose unused Leia/Rey footage rather than any awkward rewrites intended to mollify fanboys.
I actually don’t think Abrams is in the business of fan service ... his alternate timeline explainer for Star Trek was a sop to fans, but it never properly accounted for all the differences in his Star Trek universe, which ultimately were there because Abrams knows how to tell a blockbusting good story and he knew that objective was impossible within the established continuity of the TV series. So I don’t think he wrote Rose out because she wasn’t popular with a bunch of misogynistic, basement dwelling internet nerds; I absolutely agree that in the ensemble piece TROS was always intended to be, her place was always going to be an engineering role at the resistance base with Leia, which inevitably curtailed her appearance due to Carrie Fisher’s untimely death.
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31-12-2019, 10:22
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#49
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
For those who wondered where Rey got her combat abilities, it's explained in Episode 9
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01-01-2020, 13:27
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#50
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Remoaner
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Whether or not Abrams really has retconned much of The Last Jedi in Rise of Skywalker quite as much as some suggest is questionable. There has been a lot of clever marketing around this new film, not all of it positive, pandering to the idiot fanboys who are still feeling the dark side of the butthurt just because their stupid, elaborate internet theories and their favourite obscure trivia about Grand Admiral Thrawn from some early 1990s spin off novel weren’t taken up and validated in The Last Jedi. They have certainly been allowed to believe that Abrams has “rescued” the franchise, but given the negative fanboy reaction to The Last Jedi they probably had little choice but to market The Rise of Skywalker along those lines. Yet we have to remember that Disney stands behind Star Wars now; it paid a king’s ransom for the franchise and it immediately announced the Skywalker saga was to be completed with another trilogy. It is frankly inconceivable that there was no grand plan for where the story was going from the outset. You just don’t pay $4 billion for something without knowing exactly what you plan to do to safeguard the investment.
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I really liked the Last Jedi but I think this film does seek to undo a lot of that work.
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01-01-2020, 16:21
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#51
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Ran Away
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I don’t think he wrote Rose out because she wasn’t popular with a bunch of misogynistic, basement dwelling internet nerds.
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I may be an internet nerd but I am not basement dwelling and I still hate her. It all comes down to my realism factor. All your ships have been blown to bits, you are down to your last handful of survivors and you face imminent peril. Somebody has an opportunity to prevent your inevitable demise and instead of letting him do it you stop him by crashing your ship into his thus sealing the fate of all the people in the bunker as well as yourself. She didn't save him, their ships crashed in front of the AT-ATs so they both would have died anyway. If she was a true rebel she you would have thought of the greater good and acted in the best interest of everyone. It was a stupid stupid story arc and makes me want to scream every time I think about it. At the end of Rise when they are on the deck of the star destroyer and Finn tells everyone to get on the transport and leave and she stops and turns towards him and says "what are you doing?" I slapped my forehead and said "nooooooo, not again". I was just waiting for her to go running after him (and hopefully get blown up).
The funny thing is though, and we didn't get to find out, I half got the impression that Finn was going to tell Rey he loves her.
There were a few things which killed me with Rise and it is all to do with my realism factor and how far fetched stuff is. Things like Rey jumping through the forcefield on Ben's destroyer into space/orbit onto the Falcon. I thought the battle on the deck of the star destroyer at the end was stupid and the passage of time fried my brain. You assume they have gone through hyperspace and it has taken them a few hours to get there because there was no mention of waypoints and having to stop and refuel etc and add another couple of hours on for the battle, so how the pluck did Lando get around a gazillion star systems and rally thousands of ships in that short time period? That would have taken weeks and months. I also thought Lando was under used as well. Given the enormity of his character he should have had more of an influential role and I felt he was there more for decoration than anything else and it was a disservice to his character. Making Finn a "General" at the end was a joke.
The big thing in this film which did it for me was the soundtrack. Whether you want to call it fan service or not, there was a lot more of the original music and themes in this film which is what it needed in the key moments and it helped make it feel more like Star Wars. I wish they would use the Yoda or Force theme in The Mandalorian as well.
I liked how the relationship ended with Rey and Ben and if they were going to make more films in the future I would like to have seen little Jedi babies. I thought what they did for Leia was beautiful and honoured her character properly.
I mentioned in the rate the last film you saw thread that I think this is the best out of the three films. I have got two big problems with this trilogy as a whole and both come down to who is in charge. Whether you like TLJ or hate it you have got to admit there is a problem with consistency across the trilogy. I don't understand why somebody like Kathleen Kennedy didn't sit down right at the start and hash out the story for the trilogy so you knew you was telling one big story as they did with the previous trilogies. Throwing in Palpatine in the last film just doesn't work. The second thing for me is again down to quality of story. I like Rey and BB8 but the other characters don't do anything for me at all. In the previous films you cared about every single character and were emotionally invested in them, whether it be Han, Padme, Vader, Obi-Wan, all of them, good or bad. They all had depth and the characters meant something. I honestly couldn't care less in these films if anyone died, Po, Finn or anyone else. The only people I cared about were the original characters.
This trilogy didn't feel like Star Wars and I don't feel like the story has moved on or I am any more the wiser or richer for having watched it. The best way I can describe it is like you asking me to make a Marvel film. I can have lots of battles, I can put the characters in it and reference various elements of the franchise but you know it wouldn't feel right without the magical touch of the key people like Kevin Feige. The same applies to these films. The prequel trilogy felt like Star Wars and you knew you was watching part of a larger story. The new trilogy feels like a marketing gimmick to me where somebody has bought the rights to Star Wars (which they quite literally have) and are just banging out something to capitalise on the brand. The only film which has felt right was Rogue One.
I was planning on putting everything in spoiler tags but as the film has now been out for two weeks I didn't feel it was necessary as anyone who is interested should have seen it by now.
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01-01-2020, 17:58
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#52
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
I think the film series is best watched without cluttering one’s mind with too much sci fi technicality, especially stuff that sounds like it’s come from the extended universe. To the best of my recollection none of the nine saga films (nor Rogue One, nor IIRC Solo) has ever dealt with the gritty detail of travel time or refuelling stops in any consistent or detailed way. Star Wars is science fantasy, not hard science fiction. The technology serves the plot, it does not dictate it.
It seems to me that you’re falling into the same trap as a great many Uber-fans in getting cross when characters don’t conform to a fairly narrow interpretation of what Star Wars characters “should” do in any given situation. The whole point of The Last Jedi was to challenge those assumptions. Perhaps they pushed it too far for the hardcore fans but I think TLJ was a far better addition to the series for it and Rose’s reaction to Finn’s suicidal attack in the final act was by no means indefensible for her character, especially given how little we knew about her. She wasn’t a galaxy conquering hero fulfilling her manifest destiny, she was a low-grade tech who stumbled in to something way above her pay grade - again, entirely in keeping with the trope-chomping theme of that whole film.
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01-01-2020, 18:12
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#53
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Ran Away
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
I don't know how to explain but things either feel right or they don't. I personally didn't have a problem with Admiral Holdo because she is an unknown character and therefore we do not know how she thinks or reacts to things therefore her behaviour is "realistic" for her character. I also didn't have a problem with Leia flying through space like some people did. There are certain things that work and certain things that don't and I know everyone is different. I feel like we need some Judge Judy words of wisdom and I am very much of the mindset that if it doesn't make sense then it's not true.
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01-01-2020, 18:55
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#54
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cf.mega poster
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
saw this on facebook, no idea who did it, so can't give recognition they deserve
Last edited by admars; 01-01-2020 at 18:59.
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02-01-2020, 20:54
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#55
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Dr Pepper Addict
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Maximus
I didn't feel it was necessary as anyone who is interested should have seen it by now.
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Wrong. I did not see it until today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
For those who wondered where Rey got her combat abilities, it's explained in Episode 9
Her mother is Villanelle...
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Who is Villanelle ?
I knew who Rey was as soon as she blasted the transport [they thought] chewey was in.
I can only ever remember seeing that power used by the emporor, as soon as it happened I said "thats it, shes palpatines grand daughter".
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02-01-2020, 21:52
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#56
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
Wrong. I did not see it until today.
Who is Villanelle ?
I knew who Rey was as soon as she blasted the transport [they thought] chewey was in.
I can only ever remember seeing that power used by the emporor, as soon as it happened I said "thats it, shes palpatines grand daughter".
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Jodie Comer, who plays a psychopathic contract killer called Villanelle in the BBC’s Killing Eve, has a very brief cameo as Rey’s mother in a flashback towards the end of the film.
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03-01-2020, 08:30
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#57
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Ran Away
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Here's a cracker for you and it explains a lot. I strongly recommend everyone reads it when you have got a spare 15 minutes:
https://www.reddit.com/r/saltierthan...a_source_that/
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03-01-2020, 08:59
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#58
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Maximus
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The thing that’s wrong with that hypothesis is that the cinema attendance isn’t a zero-sum game - people attending Wonder Woman (and other DC films if they became more successful) wouldn’t diminish the ticket sales for MCU films.
That theory seemed more post-hoc conspiracy theory than reality based.
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03-01-2020, 09:42
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#59
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Remoaner
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
It also seems to be so defensive of JJ Abrams that, assuming it isn't just made up by the poster themselves, it seems like the leaker is intentionally trying to deflect from him.
It overrates JJ Abrams as a writer/director. Sorry, this film seemed exactly like the kind of film he would make: Big reveals, twists, and set-pieces at the expensive of a cohesive story. They were worried he would go to DC? How would that help them? JJ Abrams hasn't proved himself good at plotting an overall direction for a story. He is notorious for his ability to come up with cool concepts and mysteries and failing to finish them with much satisfaction.
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03-01-2020, 20:51
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#60
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Ran Away
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Re: Official Star Wars Saga
It would be very poor form of Disney to behave in such a manner as well. Marvel and the MCU are so epic and well respected that they should let the franchise stand on its merits. People don't flock to MCU films because they are the only thing out there, they go because they are the best and people will still go and see them regardless of what else is on.
That being said, some of the ideas which were omitted would have been perfect for the film and gave it that magical touch I said was missing several posts above. I love the idea of Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Obi Wan etc making a ghostly appearance in support of Rey at the end with the Force theme blasting through the speakers. Those are the kind of special moments that make it Star Wars. Tbh I loved all the idea/scenes which were left out and it would have been a completely different film in terms of the feel if they had been left in.
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