Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Sky lifeline to Virgin Media...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008...yb.virginmedia

"Virgin Media's new chief executive, Neil Berkett, who took over from Steve Burch, said the company was concentrating on improving its broadband offering and reducing 'churn' - the number of customers leaving."

Has anyone seem the Q1 churn figures, any idea when they get published?

For someone trying to reduce churn hes doing one hell of a Job. Phorm, accepting the RIAA/MPAA 3 strikes policy... wonder what other lunacy hes thinking of next LOL

[Wildie]

Hi, all been reading for a few weeks now after bt`s censorship and getting banned for speaking truths, thought i`ll post here.
I have informed a forum i used which has 150k users and lurkers of Phorm/webwise, and what a response from them as they mostly use a pc for forums and email nothing else.
Gave them all the links to the information about the system and what it means to them. So me hoping the msg is out where the avg user now knows what going on.

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by Wildie

Hi, all been reading for a few weeks now after bt`s censorship and getting banned for speaking truths, thought i`ll post here.
I have informed a forum i used which has 150k users and lurkers of Phorm/webwise, and what a response from them as they mostly use a pc for forums and email nothing else.
Gave them all the links to the information about the system and what it means to them. So me hoping the msg is out where the avg user now knows what going on.

Wildie and well done, you.

Here's a major post for all your friends to read: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post5762.html

Please ask all your friends and colleagues to do everything on Kursk's most excellent 'must do' list.

OB

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by Wildie

Hi, all been reading for a few weeks now after bt`s censorship and getting banned for speaking truths, thought i`ll post here.
I have informed a forum i used which has 150k users and lurkers of Phorm/webwise, and what a response from them as they mostly use a pc for forums and email nothing else.
Gave them all the links to the information about the system and what it means to them. So me hoping the msg is out where the avg user now knows what going on.

Good work. Keep it up. Have you written to your MP yet? Your MEPs? Liberty? The anti phishing working group who have accepted Phorm as a member? If you need help with any of that then just shout.

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Sky lifeline to Virgin Media...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008...yb.virginmedia

"Virgin Media's new chief executive, Neil Berkett, who took over from Steve Burch, said the company was concentrating on improving its broadband offering and reducing 'churn' - the number of customers leaving."

Has anyone seem the Q1 churn figures, any idea when they get published?

The Freesat launch can't be good news for VM either, particularly the no-contract route into HDTV at a time when people might be reluctant to commit to highish monthly payments.

On the flip side, the launch of VM i-player, delivered by the TV-on-demand infrastructure, would take pressure off the BB network, relative to other ISP's.

No wonder they are sitting on the fence, but I hope last weeks announcement is due to increased churn. The number of people threatening to leave if Phorm happens must be much larger than the number who have already gone.

[tarka]

I apologise if this has already been posted, I've been trying to keep up with this thread but with so many posts it's been a bit difficult!

I am sure most of you will have already seen the legal analysis by out-law.com (run by law firm Pinsent Masons) which Phorm are praising in their blog(http://www.out-law.com/default.aspx?page=9090). And to quote Phorm... "The article makes the important distinction between the letter and spirit of the law". Well... you could 'imply' (don't phorm just love that word? ) a lot from that statement (like phorm are admitting that it is illegal?).

anyway...

A few things jumped out at me from their analysis. (bold emphasis is mine and not in the original article)

Point 1...

Canon could instruct Phorm to deliver adverts for its latest digital camera to anyone who visited a web page identified by Canon as giving a glowing review the previous week. It can narrow that request even further: Canon can tell Phorm only to deliver the ad to anyone who read that review and also visited more than two other pages that mentioned the model name, e.g. IXUS 970, within the past three day
s.

I put this hypothetical to Phorm. It stressed that Canon would have to provide at least 10 URLs in its targeting instructions, not just one review page.

Am I missing something here? How can they achieve this without storing a users browsing history? (even if in the cookie on the users machine)

Point 2...

There are certainly good things about Phorm. First and foremost, it never knows who you are, it can't find out and it has no record of where you've been.

See point 1.. a contradiction? It MUST be able to know where you've been in order to satisfy the advertisers targeting rules?

Point 3...

"Before you say 'do we target children?' – no, we do not do that either," he said.

See point 2... how can they not target children if they do not know who you are?

Now their legal analysis...

Google implies the consent of every site that it visits, examines, indexes and copies to its cache. That has been challenged in a US court – and Google won the case by running the implied consent argument.

This argument fails yet again, for the obvious reason that everyone already knows, google see's only publicly accessable pages, phorm will profile everything, hidden pages and paid for content aswell.

What about Phorm scanning your Hotmail account? Surely that's more personal? Except that it won't scan Hotmail – Phorm has a blacklist of sites that won't be monitored and Hotmail is on it. That list, according to Phorm, runs to 500 sites and counting.

Again, we all know this point is invalid. What about webmail that is not indexed by search engines (I run webmail for a few domains I own for example which are not listed in any search engine).

The Home Office has already said that targeted online advertising like Phorm's can comply with RIPA, provided there is consent. (FIPR says the advice is misleading and should be withdrawn.)

As we all know the home office 'advice' was essentially withdrawn and before their article was posted.

Further down their piece the mention some more of the issues raised and I guess to some degree agree that they are illegal but in their opinion nothing will ever be done about it.

Far be it from me to criticise a law firm on their interpretation of the law, they are far more qualified than me, but the article suggests to me that they do not fully understand the concerns/implications that have been raised (or are ignoring them... read on). They simply say that even though it's 'technically' illegal they'll just get away with it (they seem to imply that these are "minor transgressions").

I was quite shocked to read this from a law firm but then it becomes apparent in their update at the bottom of the article....

Three readers have also noted that Pinsent Masons is one of the firms on BT's legal panel and asked me to disclose that relationship on this page. The firm is on BT's legal panel though we didn't advise on Phorm. As a large commercial law firm we are on lots of companies' legal panels.

Now it becomes a little clearer... and to be honest, quite shocking (and I didn't think any more of this would shock me!) Is it worth getting in contact with out-law.com or would the effort be futile?

Again apologies if this has already been posted, but it's a little difficult to keep up with it all.

Regards...

T

[ziggycat]

I for sure will be part of the 'Churn' of customers, Just heard from a very reliable source that my town is getting 100mb FTTD . Announcement imminent.

Goodbye VM, you can shove your Phorm plans where the sun don't shine.

[mark777]

@Tarka

Good post. Interestingly, the author of the article, Struan Robertson, also writes for Times-online. I think they are up to their necks in Phorm as well.

http://www.out-law.com/page-7520

@Tarka - I think the out-law.com thing has been done:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34543321

Post 5422

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by Paul Delaney

@Tarka - I think the out-law.com thing has been done:

Agreed, Paul, but it is always nice to see a new face with a view.

It's also always nice to be reminded that Phorm and its allies keep referring to this crap as a "privacy revolution" when we all know it's nothing of the sort. I cringe everytime I see them use that phrase.

tarka

OB

On a side note, referring to that article, I'll need to make sure I get Struan (made up name?) to represent me should I ever fracture anyone's skull.

"M'lud, my client should go free; yes, he broke the law, but these are only hairline fractures".

[JimboGunn]

Hi all. Stumbled upon this thread researching my favourite topic for TheSpoof.com. Shameless self promotion I know but I figure since I'm also promoting awareness of Phorm because I hate the idea of my ISP cashing in on my creative output it is to our mutual benefit and may even raise a few smiles too, so if you like them please Digg them and pass them around...

Phorm Responds to Claims It's Evil
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s5i32206

Privacy Campaigners say Privacy is a Joke
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s5i32238

Ministry: Phorm is Legal in UK
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s5i32484

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith had triple brain bypass in 2006
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s1i33366

Online advertisers increase TV advertising to increase online advertising revenues
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.c...dline=s5i33639

Tara and keep up the fight
JG

[AndrewJ]

The more the merrier.

[tarka]

many thanks for the welcome

A little introduction I guess...

I've been following the phorm story since it first broke and am currently with BT although I can leave at the drop of a hat.

I am another refugee from the BT forums, not that I was an active member on there, I only joined because of phorm and felt the need to get some information up there for the other users.

Regards...

T

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

@Tarka - I think the out-law.com thing has been done:

I thought it might have been but it made me feel better typing it up and pointing out the contradictions.

on a side note, as I now get emailed for every reply I should be able to keep up to date a lot easier.

T

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by OldBear

Please ask all your friends and colleagues to do everything on Kursk's most excellent 'must do' list.
OB

Thanks for the name check OldBear .

Just to be clear, especially for new joiners, the links in this list are an accumulation of the actions identified by the many contributors to this thread and as such are the product of everyone's hard graft. Listing it was the easy bit.

[OF1975]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Thanks for the name check OldBear .

Just to be clear, especially for new joiners, the links in this list are an accumulation of the actions identified by the many contributors to this thread and as such are the product of everyone's hard graft. Listing it was the easy bit.

Very true but you made a nice post collating all the suggestions into one nice and neat post. I would make the suggestion of adding writing to liberty to the list but given previous information that it takes them up to 8 weeks to respond and the fact I have yet to receive any response from them to my letter sent in march it may be a somewhat futile suggestion.