Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

The rocket attacks increased after Hamas were elected, Israel put up a blockade in response (a fact missed out intentionally by people who want to remove the ambiguity of the situation, far easier for Israel to be the devil). They have no interest in a peace, do you think they will ever compromise?

It seems clear they want to destroy Israel, Just because Israel are being barbaric in response does not absolve Hamas of being the murdering terrorists they are.

Damien, the blockade Israel imposed was a result of Hamas taking over Gaza. Israel has always controlled the movement of Palestinians inside and outside the West bank long before Hamas took power. The seige got worse over time but the main reason of it being put up was Hamas' democraticcaly elected (which people also seem to forget) rise to power.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4640629.shtml

Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza after the violently anti-Israel Hamas seized power last year, tightening the closure in recent weeks when Gaza militants resumed firing rockets at Israel.

Here's what ex President Jimmy Carter had to say about the situation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976086.html

And for good measure some other views from Human Rights Watch & Amnesty International

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/01/2...-border-breach

I“Israel’s rightful self-defense against unlawful rocket attacks does not justify a blockade that denies civilians the food, fuel and medicine needed to survive, a policy amounting to collective punishment,� said Joe Stork, acting director of Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division. “Gazans can’t turn on the lights, get tap water, buy enough food, or earn a living without Israel’s consent.�

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...-gaza-20080827

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

The rocket attacks increased after Hamas were elected, Israel put up a blockade in response (a fact missed out intentionally by people who want to remove the ambiguity of the situation, far easier for Israel to be the devil). They have no interest in a peace, do you think they will ever compromise?

It seems clear they want to destroy Israel, Just because Israel are being barbaric in response does not absolve Hamas of being the murdering terrorists they are.

I don't think it's easy to make Israel out to be the 'devil' in all of this. It's not easy for me - it's with great sadness that I find myself forced to condemn them! Many of my friends were brought up, like me, to be sympathetic to Israel's plight and, if anything, tended always to portray the other side in that fashion. What's changed now it that Israel has gone too far and when people like these start to turn their backs on Israel it's evident that the Government of that nation has not only lost the PR battle, it's lost the plot and is now scraping the barrel of means by which to wipe people out. Time after time contributors to this debate have pointed out that Hamas are far from innocent but that fact does not excuse mass slaughter and the sort of goings on which happened in the former Yugoslavia where even innocent, men, women and children in UN safe zones were murdered. Last night I heard an interview with a Palestinian doctor on the BBC. 16 of his family had just been killed whilst sheltering in a school which they'd been taken to after their homes were destroyed by Israeli bombs! Apparently UN representatives had insisted it'd be safe and (IIRC) had notified the Israelis but they still destroyed it! How many Jews in Israel can make such a claim other than those who suffered directly at the hands of the Nazis? Is that the level the Israeli government has descended to?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't think it's easy to make Israel out to be the 'devil' in all of this. It's not easy for me - it's with great sadness that I find myself forced to condemn them! Many of my friends were brought up, like me, to be sympathetic to Israel's plight and, if anything, tended always to portray the other side in that fashion. What's changed now it that Israel has gone too far and when people like these start to turn their backs on Israel it's evident that the Government of that nation has not only lost the PR battle, it's lost the plot and is now scraping the barrel of means by which to wipe people out. Time after time contributors to this debate have pointed out that Hamas are far from innocent but that fact does not excuse mass slaughter and the sort of goings on which happened in the former Yugoslavia where even innocent, men, women and children in UN safe zones were murdered. Last night I heard an interview with a Palestinian doctor on the BBC. 16 of his family had just been killed whilst sheltering in a school which they'd been taken to after their homes were destroyed by Israeli bombs! Apparently UN representatives had insisted it'd be safe and (IIRC) had notified the Israelis but they still destroyed it! How many Jews in Israel can make such a claim other than those who suffered directly at the hands of the Nazis? Is that the level the Israeli government has descended to?

Very well said. Your views are echoed by a lot of people I have spoken to, who were originally very pro Israel throughout the history of the region.

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't think it's easy to make Israel out to be the 'devil' in all of this. It's not easy for me - it's with great sadness that I find myself forced to condemn them! Many of my friends were brought up, like me, to be sympathetic to Israel's plight and, if anything, tended always to portray the other side in that fashion. What's changed now it that Israel has gone too far and when people like these start to turn their backs on Israel it's evident that the Government of that nation has not only lost the PR battle, it's lost the plot and is now scraping the barrel of means by which to wipe people out. Time after time contributors to this debate have pointed out that Hamas are far from innocent but that fact does not excuse mass slaughter and the sort of goings on which happened in the former Yugoslavia where even innocent, men, women and children in UN safe zones were murdered. Last night I heard an interview with a Palestinian doctor on the BBC. 16 of his family had just been killed whilst sheltering in a school which they'd been taken to after their homes were destroyed by Israeli bombs! Apparently UN representatives had insisted it'd be safe and (IIRC) had notified the Israelis but they still destroyed it! How many Jews in Israel can make such a claim other than those who suffered directly at the hands of the Nazis? Is that the level the Israeli government has descended to?

Good post

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Very well said. Your views are echoed by a lot of people I have spoken to, who were originally very pro Israel throughout the history of the region.

I am still Pro-Israel, I just don't agree with they are doing, it's far to extreme.

Hatred just begets more hatred.Hatred prevents forgiveness,which in turn prevents healing.Without healing there cannot be peace..

The first step is always the hardest..Forgiving someone whom the world says you should hate takes a great deal of courage.How many have the courage on both sides?

How many of us have that courage?

I've never forgotten this man who had such courage.

If only we had more people like him.

Israel to me seems a bit like the little boy that was bullied in the playground as a kid and then grew up to be more powerful then his former bullies. I am a little pro israeli although it is getting harder and harder to defend them and i would prefer a diplomatic solution not just for this but for the whole region so that it's people can have stability and security and grow to accept each other.

Hatred in the region is often irrational and passed from one generation to the next meaning we have a never ending circle. We really have to get to a stage where all party's involved can see and accept that military action is never going to resolve anything in that region and an acceptence that while it may not be the best thing for them and what they want now that diplomacy is the only means by which they can all live together and build a positive relationship with one another.

Take the governments out of this and the people themself have managed to live with each other for hundreds of years most of the time peacefully and beneficially for all sides. We have a lot of politics going on here and until obama takes power and states his position officially i don't think this is going to end for now.

It is clear the israeli's are waiting for this they want to establish the same beneficial relationship with an obama led US that they have had in the past. But the one central point is none of this would be happening now if hamas were not complete morons and started firing missiles into Israel that was complete and utter stupidity handing the israeli's an excuse to do all of this.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

I am still Pro-Israel, I just don't agree with they are doing, it's far to extreme.

Damien, whether you're pro Israeli or not is not really an issue for me. My issue is that you feel that the cause of the blockade and Israel's reaction (which admitedly you feel is extreme) is in retaliation to Hamas's firing rockets.

The opression that Israel has imposed on the palestinians, is not something that has just happened since Hamas took power in Gaza. It is not something that has simply started in the last 10 years. You have to remember that a 30 year old Hamas freedom fighter would have spent his entire life under occupation and oppression of some sort or another. He would have not been able to travel freely, he would have been subjected to checkpoints, he would have seen members of his family not allowed or able to find work. He will have most likely been living off aid. Everything he does would be under the watchful eye of Israeli soldiers. They and their government would be controlling his life.

In contrast he would have seen Israeli families build house on his land, and prosper. While he is grwoing up he would have seen fellow palestinians being murdered, he would have attended or seen funerals of children shot down by Israeli soldiers. He might even know of someone who's sister or daughtr was raped, or who's brother or son was shot down by an Israeli soldier simply because he is a Palestinian.

Palestinians in their 30s will have spent their entire live under occupation. They would not have spent one day in their lives feeling they are free. I am not saying other nations in the area haven't contributed but the biggest culpable party in the oppression of palestinians, in the death of palestinians and the destruction of Palestinian land is Israel.

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Damien, whether you're pro Israeli or not is not really an issue for me. My issue is that you feel that the cause of the blockade and Israel's reaction (which admitedly you feel is extreme) is in retaliation to Hamas's firing rockets.

The opression that Israel has imposed on the palestinians, is not something that has just happened since Hamas took power in Gaza. It is not something that has simply started in the last 10 years. You have to remember that a 30 year old Hamas freedom fighter would have spent his entire life under occupation and oppression of some sort or another. He would have not been able to travel freely, he would have been subjected to checkpoints, he would have seen members of his family not allowed or able to find work. He will have most likely been living off aid. Everything he does would be under the watchful eye of Israeli soldiers. They and their government would be controlling his life.

In contrast he would have seen Israeli families build house on his land, and prosper. While he is grwoing up he would have seen fellow palestinians being murdered, he would have attended or seen funerals of children shot down by Israeli soldiers. He might even know of someone who's sister or daughtr was raped, or who's brother or son was shot down by an Israeli soldier simply because he is a Palestinian.

Palestinians in their 30s will have spent their entire live under occupation. They would not have spent one day in their lives feeling they are free. I am not saying other nations in the area haven't contributed but the biggest culpable party in the oppression of palestinians, in the death of palestinians and the destruction of Palestinian land is Israel.

It would be wrong to portray just the Palestinians as being oppressed since the same is true of the Israelis.

No doubt, we could all find links showing oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis and find similar links for the oppression of Israel by the Palestinians.

Repeatedly going back over the events of the past trying to portray one side as being better than the other is pointless since they are just as bad as each other.

All the links show is that, at some time, both sides have been oppressed, both sides have used similar military tactics and both sides have committed atrocious acts against children, civilians and military personnel.

We need to stop digging up the past and focusing on the war between Palestinians and Israelis and start thinking about the future and focusing on the peace between Palestinians and Israelis.

We need to take the violence, aggression, bitterness, hatred and blame culture out of the Palestinian-Israeli relationships and using negotiation and goodwill, start to build a fairer, more peaceful region that allows both Palestinians and Israelis to live in peace, trust and security.That won't be an easy task.

However, while the fighting continues that is never going to happen and more people on both sides are going to be unnecessarily killed. Sadly, tonight's television reports will no doubt confirm the truth of this statement.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Damien, whether you're pro Israeli or not is not really an issue for me. My issue is that you feel that the cause of the blockade and Israel's reaction (which admitedly you feel is extreme) is in retaliation to Hamas's firing rockets.

The opression that Israel has imposed on the palestinians, is not something that has just happened since Hamas took power in Gaza. It is not something that has simply started in the last 10 years. You have to remember that a 30 year old Hamas freedom fighter would have spent his entire life under occupation and oppression of some sort or another. He would have not been able to travel freely, he would have been subjected to checkpoints, he would have seen members of his family not allowed or able to find work. He will have most likely been living off aid. Everything he does would be under the watchful eye of Israeli soldiers. They and their government would be controlling his life.

In contrast he would have seen Israeli families build house on his land, and prosper. While he is grwoing up he would have seen fellow palestinians being murdered, he would have attended or seen funerals of children shot down by Israeli soldiers. He might even know of someone who's sister or daughtr was raped, or who's brother or son was shot down by an Israeli soldier simply because he is a Palestinian.

Palestinians in their 30s will have spent their entire live under occupation. They would not have spent one day in their lives feeling they are free. I am not saying other nations in the area haven't contributed but the biggest culpable party in the oppression of palestinians, in the death of palestinians and the destruction of Palestinian land is Israel.

Fair enough, I was wrong about the blockade, thanks for correcting my ignorance on that I then agree that Israel are wrong to impose a blockade because they disagree with result of a democratic election. Although I can see why the reject the choice, electing the government that has a history of attacking your country.

Israel is the worst contributor to the misery of the Palestinians, my point behind of my posts though is that this is not because of some Nazi-esque hatred of Muslims or even the Palestinians, in a way this is just incidental. It's because Israel has a fear of losing their homeland, their freedom, lives and so on. Groups such as Hamas and Hizbollah, backed by countries such as Iran and Syria, do a lot to cause that fear. Unlike the Palestinians though, Israel has the fire-power to alleviate their fear.

It may seem hypocritical that Israel are willing to inflict destruction on a people who are actually living their fears, because it is. However a lot of groups that claim to represent the Palestinians show no interest in a peace, and until that changes then it will keep happening.

Basically, I believe the Israeli government do want a lasting peace at some point, they will support the creation of a Palestinian state. Maybe not the current government of Israel, but the will exists in that country. The will also exists amongst the Palestinians but I cannot see who will step up to represent them and reject the violence of their peers and outside influences.

At the end of the day, International law is rubbish, the UN are toothless, and other governments can only do so much to change the actions of another. Each country acts in their own best interests and tragically for the Palestinians no other country really has their welfare as a key concern. Injustice is the history of most of our world

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Damien

Fair enough, I was wrong about the blockade, thanks for correcting my ignorance on that I then agree that Israel are wrong to impose a blockade because they disagree with result of a democratic election. Although I can see why the reject the choice, electing the government that has a history of attacking your country.

Israel is the worst contributor to the misery of the Palestinians, my point behind of my posts though is that this is not because of some Nazi-esque hatred of Muslims or even the Palestinians, in a way this is just incidental. It's because Israel has a fear of losing their homeland, their freedom, lives and so on. Groups such as Hamas and Hizbollah, backed by countries such as Iran and Syria, do a lot to cause that fear. Unlike the Palestinians though, Israel has the fire-power to alleviate their fear.

It may seem hypocritical that Israel are willing to inflict destruction on a people who are actually living their fears, because it is. However a lot of groups that claim to represent the Palestinians show no interest in a peace, and until that changes then it will keep happening.

Basically, I believe the Israeli government do want a lasting peace at some point, they will support the creation of a Palestinian state. Maybe not the current government of Israel, but the will exists in that country. The will also exists amongst the Palestinians but I cannot see who will step up to represent them and reject the violence of their peers and outside influences.

At the end of the day, International law is rubbish, the UN are toothless, and other governments can only do so much to change the actions of another. Each country acts in their own best interests and tragically for the Palestinians no other country really has their welfare as a key concern. Injustice is the history of most of our world

Both sides are a potential threat to each other for historical reasons and it is just as true to say that the Palestinians are the biggest source of misery to the Israelis as the Israelis are the biggest source of misery to the Palestininians, so there's nothing new there.

Israel is situated in a region surrounded by hostile neighbours who at one time or another over the last 60 years have been responsible for attacks on Israel. If Israel had not had support from the US, it would have gone under years ago.The Palestinians, on the other hand, are surrounded by friendly nationss, which have provided various kinds of support over the years though even they draw the line at supplying a peace-keeping force.

Given that supporters of both Hamas and of Israel are complaining about the loss of lives but continuing to fight, it's not really surprising that other countries don't want to put the lives of their troops and medical staff in the line of fire. As the situation stands, the UN, which relies on the support of these reluctant countries is, as you say, essentially rendered powerless. This means that ending the bloodshed rests in the hands of the two sets of combatants. They are on their own in this conflict.

There are no winners here. Everybody loses. The best we can do at the moment is damage limitation, saving lives and pleading with both sides to agree to the ceasefire, because that's when the talking about the future can begin.

The protesters are getting rowdy and violent down in London at the moment. Apparently a police officer has been assaulted and missiles have been thrown

Originally Posted by Damien

The protesters are getting rowdy and violent down in London at the moment. Apparently a police officer has been assaulted and missiles have been thrown

That's the problem with trying to protest about peace..some twonk always wants to get rowdy and undermine the point being made..

[Dai]

The final solution can only be achieved in one way.

It's a fact that Israel exists and there is no way they are going away anytime soon.

It's a fact that the Palestinians need somewhere they can live free from fear and pain.

Both parties have to draw boundary lines and agree to let the others live in peace. They have to each recognise the other's right to a share of this land and sincerely act to create parallel communities.

Until both sides will compromise and agree to meet the other halfway the pain and death will continue.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by DaiNasty

The final solution can only be achieved in one way.

It's a fact that Israel exists and there is no way they are going away anytime soon.

It's a fact that the Palestinians need somewhere they can live free from fear and pain.

Both parties have to draw boundary lines and agree to let the others live in peace. They have to each recognise the other's right to a share of this land and sincerely act to create parallel communities.

Until both sides will compromise and agree to meet the other halfway the pain and death will continue.

Agree mate, Don't think Israel will bide by this though, they carry on building settlements on Palestinian Land even though the settlements are illegal under UN law.

Israel only listens to America, they do not care what the rest of the world thinks about them quite clearly. Unless Obama changes Americas stance on Israel nothing will change.

[icestar2]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Hatred just begets more hatred.Hatred prevents forgiveness,which in turn prevents healing.Without healing there cannot be peace..

I dont want to make light of this whole situation but after reading that comment I had a little giggle Maggy. Not for any bad reason as it is a great statment and I fully agree with you it's just that it kind of sounded like something yoda from star wars would say