[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's all been well manipulated which is for the best; Britain outside of the EU would be an economic disaster.

As you evidently know more about the economic scenario if the UK leaves the EU than any expert that's studied the possibilities given your unequivocal guarantee of disaster we'd best all vote to remain.

Mr K has spoken.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Gavin78

If the Polls are correct though seems to be enough voting to keep us in so on wards we go

We certainly will be going onwards. If they give us so little when we're 'allegedly' considering leaving can you imagine how it'll be after a vote to remain?

I do agree with Mr K. I think there are enough people who'll vote to remain. The younger generation are either gullible enough and/or stupid enough to think that they receive a net benefit from our EU membership, even though they likely suffer more than most. We know how much many of them like their safe spaces.

The sheeple will probably vote to remain; much of the population is too stupid to see beyond a rosette on a politician let alone be confronted by a question like this, and the EU will take the permission Cameron has delivered them to put the UK in its place.

He will be utterly powerless to protest as his deal is taken apart, and will be unable to oppose pretty much anything.

Originally Posted by Ken Clarke

I look forward to the day when the Westminster Parliament is just a Council Chamber in Europe.

[pip08456]

Why would Britain outside of the EU be an economic disaster??

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

As you evidently know more about the economic scenario if the UK leaves the EU than any expert that's studied the possibilities given your unequivocal guarantee of disaster we'd best all vote to remain.

Mr K has spoken.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------



We certainly will be going onwards. If they give us so little when we're 'allegedly' considering leaving can you imagine how it'll be after a vote to remain?

I do agree with Mr K. I think there are enough people who'll vote to remain. The younger generation are either gullible enough and/or stupid enough to think that they receive a net benefit from our EU membership, even though they likely suffer more than most. We know how much many of them like their safe spaces.

The sheeple will probably vote to remain; much of the population is too stupid to see beyond a rosette on a politician let alone be confronted by a question like this, and the EU will take the permission Cameron has delivered them to put the UK in its place.

He will be utterly powerless to protest as his deal is taken apart, and will be unable to oppose pretty much anything.

Interesting viewpoints - those not aligned to your views are 'sheeple', 'too stupid', 'gullible enough and/or stupid enough'.

It's understandable people have strong feelings on the subject, but insulting those who do not have the same views isn't the way forward, imho - it reminds me of the tactics of some of 'Yessers' in the Indy referendum...

Isn't it better to convince people with the arguments pro/con something, rather than being pejorative?

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I do agree with Mr K. I think there are enough people who'll vote to remain. The younger generation are either gullible enough and/or stupid enough to think that they receive a net benefit from our EU membership, even though they likely suffer more than most. We know how much many of them like their safe spaces.

The sheeple will probably vote to remain; much of the population is too stupid to see beyond a rosette on a politician let alone be confronted by a question like this, and the EU will take the permission Cameron has delivered them to put the UK in its place.

I think you overestimate how much people care about the EU either way. There is a small minority who love the EU, a bigger minority who detest the EU and a larger majority who are largely indifferent.

That last demographic will be the key to it and if they perceive any economic risk in leaving the EU they'll probably vote to stay. They'll look at their lives now and ask themselves if they're willing to gone down a unknown path or stick to the one we've got.

It might actually be a lot closer than the polls predict. Europe might be in the midst of a huge migration crisis by the time of the vote and they might swing to leave.

But if Leave does lose then they'll only have themselves to blame. They didn't just get the referendum they wanted they got it at a perfect time. A migration crisis, a poor deal from Cameron, an poor Labour Leader and the Eurozone mess already adding to a population that has never really taken to Europe in the first place. It even seems like a lot of the press is onside!

It may be though that Leave has spent too long talking to themselves for so long they don't understand the concerns of the majority who don't share their obsession with it.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Can someone explain why WE, pay the EU. 50 MILLION PER DAY.

Its was reported in Londons papers.

I can quite clearly, see that the UK, is being taken for fools

[Osem]

One thing's for sure, it'll be a very sad indictment of the UK electorate if they can't get off their bums en masse and vote in what could well be the most important vote they'll ever have.

Although I feel we need to get out, sadly, if the final result is to stay in I'll feel a bit better if there's been a record turnout. This is momentous.

Frankly I don't understand how anyone of any age can be indifferent to this debate but then the UK has more than its fair share of folk who like to whine a lot but never get off their bottoms and try to do something about it. As for certainty, well nothing's certain irrespective of whether we're in or we're out. Just look what's going on in the EU now as nations basically forget their obligations to the whole and make up their own rules in their own interests. That's how certain life in the EU is.

Originally Posted by Osem

One thing's for sure, it'll be a very sad indictment of the UK electorate if they can't get off their bums en masse and vote in what could well be the most important vote they'll ever have.

I think the turnout will be fine, relatively speaking, when I say 'care' I mean enough to take the change option rather than the status-quo option. If 'In' wins it won't be because of a love of the EU but because they don't want uncertainty and are relatively fine with their lives.

---------- Post added at 21:45 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Frankly I don't understand how anyone of any age can be indifferent to this debate but then the UK has more than its fair share of folk who like to whine a lot but never get off their bottoms and try to do something about it. A

Because people have their own things to be getting on with. I doubt the EU is a bit bother to their day-to-day lives. They'll worry about all the other things that are going on: health, jobs, mortgages and so on. They may not like the EU in concept and would probably vote out if they knew it would be an easy process but if there is chance it could impact on them or lead to more uncertainty they may opt to avoid that.

That is the challenge for Leave.

[Osem]

Well we've all got stuff to get on with and there's not a single aspect of our lives that staying in or getting out couldn't well have a major impact on. Whatever their views there's no excuse for not voting even if it amounts to writing "I don't know" on the ballot paper.

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Can someone explain why WE, pay the EU. 50 MILLION PER DAY.

Its was reported in Londons papers.

I can quite clearly, see that the UK, is being taken for fools

We pay that amount because London newspapers say we pay that amount.

Actually the figure is half that amount. As for why you really do need to get your head out of a sandpit and read actual facts and not newspapers trying to sell papers on sensatialisms.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Interesting viewpoints - those not aligned to your views are 'sheeple', 'too stupid', 'gullible enough and/or stupid enough'.

It's understandable people have strong feelings on the subject, but insulting those who do not have the same views isn't the way forward, imho - it reminds me of the tactics of some of 'Yessers' in the Indy referendum...

Isn't it better to convince people with the arguments pro/con something, rather than being pejorative?

Totally agree with this. To me, the onus is on the Leave campaign to convince with persuasive, fact based arguments. We see so much, on this forum and in the media, of people playing the various emotive angles: nationalism, stupidity, race, etc.

What we need to see are worked examples of economic/social scenarios for Stay and Leave. The can be debated and argued over.

Just resorting to name calling is no way to debate something so important ..

Of course, some delight in the endless posting of the same, mindless hyperbole but I suppose that is to be expected.

[Ramrod]

Has this been posted yet?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Interesting viewpoints - those not aligned to your views are 'sheeple', 'too stupid', 'gullible enough and/or stupid enough'.

It's understandable people have strong feelings on the subject, but insulting those who do not have the same views isn't the way forward, imho - it reminds me of the tactics of some of 'Yessers' in the Indy referendum...

Isn't it better to convince people with the arguments pro/con something, rather than being pejorative?

Could've been phrased better. The sheeple comment was referring to the alarming number of people who vote according to rosette colour rather than the population as a whole.

As far as the younger generation go I should probably stop reading and watching the content I do as it portrays many of those you would expect to be more educated and free-thinking as entitled morons with an intensely egocentric view of the world focused around their own tender feelings.

It was inappropriate to make such a gross generalisation.

Arguments for and against seem largely futile. I have to go along with Mr K on that. We have people who are incapable of making decisions based on basic policies in elections and vote by colour. Something like this we've no chance of anyone making a totally educated decision and many making one that involves no thought at all. The campaigns know this so, already, are doing their utmost to appeal to the basest emotions and lowest common denominators.

This referendum needs to wait until 2017, and boring as it is a decent and lengthy educational campaign, fact-heavy, needs to be run, not a rush to get it out of the way before the warmer weather kicks in and the scary migrant videos start flowing en masse again.

The evidence I'm seen is quite convincing that, all factors taken into account, there is only one decision to be made here. Much of what people may like about the EU can and should be campaigned for by UK politicians and delivered by UK politicians. If Labour are relying on the EU to preserve workers' rights they may want to question their own existence and purpose if they can't be an opposition. If Ken Clarke is so eager for the oldest Parliament in the world to become 'just a Council Chamber in Europe' he may want to rethink why he is part of an institution he considers such a waste of time.

Thanks for pulling me up on my rant and, rightly, holding me to account for it. You kindly gave me the opportunity to withdraw some content, clarify other content, and apologise for other sections.

---------- Post added at 00:35 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

I think you overestimate how much people care about the EU either way. There is a small minority who love the EU, a bigger minority who detest the EU and a larger majority who are largely indifferent.

That last demographic will be the key to it and if they perceive any economic risk in leaving the EU they'll probably vote to stay. They'll look at their lives now and ask themselves if they're willing to gone down a unknown path or stick to the one we've got.

If Leave hadn't been so busy naval gazing and apparently in the case if grassroots out recruiting one of the most disliked politicians in the country, a man with a history of apparent anti-semetism, a liking for working for Iran and others, being something of a fan of organisations on the more Islamist side of the spectrum to come speak they may have made some progress.

It's actually really simple - the economic risk of staying in is huge. The economic risk for the UK as the EU continues political integration, and this will go apace when the UK vote to remain.

There is no reason at all for the member states to be in any way bothered by the protections we already have, there's no way that we're not going to be pushed to the sidelines, but paying the bills, obeying the directives, and increasingly seeing mission creep.

If you think the status quo will still be there in the case of a vote to remain the EU will rapidly begin attempts to either with carrot or stick more closer integrate the UK into the programme.

Anyone who thinks that the UK won't rapidly be pulled further into union and, at every step, Dave will avoid the transference of powers lock is likely wrong.

It's quite obvious how to do this - push the UK onto the naughty boy step, reserve all the 'good bits' to those without this special status. Ensure we get complete and utter excrement and point to that we wanted to be different.

End up with a 2 speed EU indeed. The UK, receiving the bare basics from the legally binding treaties and absolutely nothing else but paying in plenty, then the rest of the EU not on the naughty step.

Any possible reason to get more cash from the UK should be followed up - they aren't going anywhere so why not.

Endgame to annoy the UK enough, knowing that they have absolutely nothing to bargain with, to push us into dropping objections and beginning deeper integration.

Deeper integration of course to follow the style of the Lisbon Treaty, if it involves constitutional change perhaps try a couple of referenda in other countries, wait for them to be lost, then ignore them, rename the project, and allow the nation state politicians to completely ignore the will of their electorate. Maybe even get the UK Prime Minister apparently so embarrassed to be signing after denying the UK a referendum that he did so in a back room, not in the presentation.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

I want to leave the EU so when we lock some ******* up for their whole life, it means they come out feet first in a box.

Not go to the ECHR, who tell us to release him.

Leaving the EU makes no difference to the echr they're entirely different entities I believe, you like myself need to aquaint yourself with some actual facts before reaching a conclusion

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Kymmy

We pay that amount because London newspapers say we pay that amount.

Actually the figure is half that amount. As for why you really do need to get your head out of a sandpit and read actual facts and not newspapers trying to sell papers on sensatialisms.

To be fair to Arthur just this once decent hard reliable non biased facts are hard to come by

[Gavin78]

I think that is what the biggest problem is there isn't enough information as to what actually goes in the EU unless you are pretty clued up on politics.

This is what scares people especially the younger generation. Not having a clue as to what goes on in the EU with pro EU politicians saying it will be bad for the UK to leave and those saying no we need to leave we don't need the EU.

I'm hoping this campaign will enlighten us everything from both sides. I do Agree though that June this year seems close to vote and more time should be given to campaign

[papa smurf]

i just watched Cameron on the Andrew marr show ,he has a very low opinion of our capabilities as a nation ,and i also think its been a very long time since he has been acquainted with the truth -he is all gloom doom smoke and mirrors ,and has still achieved nothing with his negotiations .