Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

I’m not doing the mode of death of children thing all over again, but the Israeli military isn’t a shining light on the child death front. Or rape for that matter.

Nobody holds the moral high ground whether branded a “militant” or a “soldier”.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo rather than prolonging it but then I don't believe the government there actually want peace and would go further and say a certain amount of atrocities are acceptable to them to maintain the current situation as make no mistake it's not Hamas Netanyahu fears, it's a two state solution he's scared of most

So Hamas goes in, murders and abducts hundreds of Israelis, chops off babies' heads and you come out with the meaningless words "I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo".

That's what we would have liked to see before all this happened (and Israel itself is now too divided to get this done quickly). I ask again, what should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

People are dodging that question. I wonder why??

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So Hamas goes in, murders and abducts hundreds of Israelis, chops off babies' heads and you come out with the meaningless words "I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo".

That's what we would have liked to see before all this happened (and Israel itself is now too divided to get this done quickly). I ask again, what should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

People are dodging that question. I wonder why??

I've not dodged any questions, in fact I've answered this one several times but people like you and old boy don't want actual solutions you just want to shout WHAT SHOULD THEY DO THEN to justify war crimes, so for the third time:

I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza

I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off

I'd cut hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt

I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with

I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens

These things would break the revenge cycle but the leadership of either side isn't interested in that as it's not them who suffer in maintaining the status quo

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody holds the moral high ground whether branded a “militant” or a “soldier”.

I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.

I’m not sure the thousands who have died under Israeli bombardment would feel the same about the distinction to be honest. At all levels, throughout the conflict spanning decades, Palestinian civilian deaths have massively outnumbered Israeli ones. Others have - rightly - pointed to the rationale for Israelis to seek vengeance. The most vocal proponents of this are in the Israeli government as it embarks upon collective punishment.

It’s a double standard to not expect Palestinians to do the same, through whatever vehicles become available to do so. Which is why ultimately this will all be futile.

It’s a race to the bottom for both.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I've not dodged any questions, in fact I've answered this one several times but people like you and old boy don't want actual solutions you just want to shout WHAT SHOULD THEY DO THEN to justify war crimes, so for the third time:

I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza

I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off

I'd cut hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt

I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with

I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens

These things would break the revenge cycle but the leadership of either side isn't interested in that as it's not them who suffer in maintaining the status quo

At last. An attempt at answering the question: What should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza

So you're arguing for assassination by Israel in a foreign country. Might that set the wider conflagration off?

I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off

Sure - right thing to do in principle. But if those accounts are in Doha with an Arab bank, what then?

I'd cut Hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt

Nice in theory. But won't the Palestinians just call it "western propaganda"? Is your suggestion realistic?

I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with

Interesting. Does Fatah have the appetite or the means to make that opposition work? Or is Israel so much the enemy that Fatah will not take up your suggestion?

I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens

Isn't that pie-in-the sky? Who would appoint that leader? Why isn't there a better leader of Fatah now?

I do hope that others who have been avoiding an answer to my question make an attempt.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Fearful and dangerous times to be a Jew in Israel.

However,

Not fearful and dangerous times to be a Palestinian in the UK........

Originally Posted by Pierre

I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.

Spot on, Pierre. Civilians become casualties in any war, Be it Ukraine, Syria, Yemen or Palestine. The complication in some wars such as in Palestine, is that the fighters are embedded within the population, and in this case, are quite blatantly, and by design, holding them as human shields.

In other wars, such as Ukraine, the likes of the aggressor (Russia in this case) deliberately aim their rockets at civilian targets such as schools and hospitals where they know the most civilians would be killed in one go. We don’t see so much hand-wringing there, do we?

War is horrible and bloody. We should always try to find a solution to avoid it. However in this case, we have one party who has actually started a war to avoid peace talks. Hamas is ruthless and bloody, and I am afraid Israel is doing all it can now to eliminate this festering sore.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Spot on, Pierre. Civilians become casualties in any war, Be it Ukraine, Syria, Yemen or Palestine. The complication in some wars such as in Palestine, is that the fighters are embedded within the population, and in this case, are quite blatantly, and by design, holding them as human shields.

In other wars, such as Ukraine, the likes of the aggressor (Russia in this case) deliberately aim their rockets at civilian targets such as schools and hospitals where they know the most civilians would be killed in one go. We don’t see so much hand-wringing there, do we?

War is horrible and bloody. We should always try to find a solution to avoid it. However in this case, we have one party who has actually started a war to avoid peace talks. Hamas is ruthless and bloody, and I am afraid Israel is doing all it can now to eliminate this festering sore.

You aren't 'afraid' anything - your callous dismissal of Palestinian civilian life - specifically families remains clear. Regardless what whatever spin you place those were your own words.

Had you actually believed Israel were doing "all it can" we'd not have went through the 2006 Palestinian election making the Palestinian civilians party to terrorist acts or your (incorrect) belief that invoking self-defence absolves Israel of any responsibility as it carries on it's war.

If more Israeli civilians die - and I hope they don't - you absolutely will not chalk them up as "casualties in any war" and shrug.

[1andrew1]

Interesting observation from Robert Peston.

The Commons is now much more divided on the crisis in Israel and Gaza than it was a few days ago.

[Stephen] Flynn, SNP leader in the Commons, accuses Israël of illegal collective punishment of Palestinians.

Labour’s Zarah Sultana accuses Israel of war crimes.

Jess Philips, a front bencher, calls on Sunak with anger to call out Israel if it commits war crimes.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1716474297907065134

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Interesting observation from Robert Peston.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1716474297907065134

Essentially, they know which way public opinion - which wasn't particularly favourable to Israel anyway - is going. The longer we have Israeli bombardment of the civilian population and starvation in refugee camps beamed into our eyeballs it will only get worse.

The inability to say what the average person can see with his or her own eyes is an awful look for any politician. If Israel plan to carry on for two, three, four months the situation is untenable for Sunak and Starmer to hide behind Israel's right to 'self-defence'. The only question is who breaks first and when.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Essentially, they know which way public opinion - which wasn't particularly favourable to Israel anyway

Several hundred people in London celebrating Jihadis, doesn’t count as “public opinion”

The MSM probably won’t report all of what was shown.

But if this “compilation video” was shown prime time on BBC1……….you may be surprised at which way public opinion went.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...Nctq_brkE2FpSV

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Several hundred people in London celebrating Jihadis, doesn’t count as “public opinion”

The MSM probably won’t report all of what was shown.

But if this “compilation video” was shown prime time on BBC1……….you may be surprised at which way public opinion went.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...Nctq_brkE2FpSV

I don’t think anyone is in denial about the actions of Hamas. Whether they justify the systematic slaughter of thousands, displacement of hundreds of thousands, of Palestinians who had nothing to do with it is the question.

I’m sure the Palestinians could equally capture the hearts and minds of the population with the charred remains of children blown apart in Israeli air strikes. It’s very much not a one way street when the average person would, somewhat reasonably, expect a 21st century military to behave slightly better than your average terrorist group.

Most people would view the conflict as a consequence of events predating two weeks ago on Saturday.

I’m very much sceptical that there’s a mainstream media effort to downplay the events - every time I switch on the news it is the life story of one hostage or another. I guess it’d be hard to personalise each Palestinian story given the ruthless efficiency with which Israel are creating more of them.

[Sephiroth]

Even though jfman slips in an occasional sort of criticism of Hamas, his posts are seriously tilted towards the Palestinians.

Originally Posted by jfman

I don’t think anyone is in denial about the actions of Hamas. Whether they justify the systematic slaughter of thousands, displacement of hundreds of thousands, of Palestinians who had nothing to do with it is the question.

I’m sure the Palestinians could equally capture the hearts and minds of the population with the charred remains of children blown apart in Israeli air strikes. It’s very much not a one way street when the average person would, somewhat reasonably, expect a 21st century military to behave slightly better than your average terrorist group.

Most people would view the conflict as a consequence of events predating two weeks ago on Saturday.

While I firmly believe - and have repeatedly stated - that the ‘who’s to blame for what’ question is impossibly complex to answer given the causal link from one event to another, stretching back more than 150 years …

I absolutely reject your continued attempts to draw actual or moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas’ actions over the past fortnight. Sure there’s room to debate what degree of military response is warranted on Israel’s part, but that’s because they’re operating a uniformed army with a chain of command and a plan of action that quite obviously shows awareness of international legal obligations as well as intense political pressure from allies. Their response is considered and calibrated. Argue they got the balance wrong by all means, but suggestions that their actions amount to the equivalent of Hamas are profoundly un-serious.

Hamas, to the extent it had a plan, entered Israel with the intention of behaving in as barbaric a way as possible, to the greatest extent possible. Beheading, torture, rape, execution of parents in front of children; execution of children in front of parents.

The behaviour of Israel in Gaza this week *is*not*the*same* as the behaviour of Hamas in Israel last week. The fact that those killed in Gaza might not see it that way is, tragically, besides the point. There is simply no comparison between no-holds-barred barbarism and calculated military action.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Even though jfman slips in an occasional sort of criticism of Hamas, his posts are seriously tilted towards the Palestinians.

He’s perfectly entitled to take that position.

At least he’s straight in his views, unlike some others.