Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

The blockade was the result of Hamas rocket attacks! Look at the number of rockets, they have been going up for ages. The best time for Gaza was at a period of low rocket attacks, when Israel pulled out of Gaza. There is a consequence to your actions and Gaza is suffering those as a result of their own government's actions.

Israel has been shown more than willing to deal with Gaza and reduce tensions as their 2005 pullout showed, so long Gaza responds in kind. They are, unfortunately, also willing to deal out a horrific amount of suffering if they don't.

There will be no peace until Hamas are out of power in Gaza.

Hamas did not sign up to another cease fire because Israel made no concessions in regards to reducing the blockade and allowing the people of Gaza to be free. Can you please explain how forcing citizens to live in utter poverty and to restrict their movements, to allow for one of the worst catastrophes to build up over a period of time, in a time when rocket attacks have stopped (i.e during a ceasefire) is going to give anyone an incentive to carry on with it.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Hamas did not sign up to another cease fire because Israel made no concessions in regards to reducing the blockade and allowing the people of Gaza to be free. Can you please explain how forcing citizens to live in utter poverty and to restrict their movements, to allow for one of the worst catastrophes to build up over a period of time, in a time when rocket attacks have stopped (i.e during a ceasefire) is going to give anyone an incentive to carry on with it.

I am guessing Israel did not trust Hamas, what with the fact they kept attack Israel during the cease fire and before the blockade. A lasting cease fire needs to both assure no more rocket attacks (2,500 is stupid) and no more blockade.

My point is Hamas and Israel are equally to blame for the suffering in Gaza, and I don't like seeing Hamas role in all of this deminised for the sake of making Isreal seem worse.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

I am guessing Israel did not trust Hamas, what with the fact they kept attack Israel during the cease fire and before the blockade. A lasting cease fire needs to both assure no more rocket attacks (2,500 is stupid) and no more blockade.

My point is Hamas and Israel are equally to blame for the suffering in Gaza, and I don't like seeing Hamas role in all of this deminised for the sake of making Isreal seem worse.

Do you have a link as to how many rocket attacks were made during the ceasefire? The graph you linked to shows rocket/mortar attacks upto november 2008.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

1. "GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank shells killed at least 40 Palestinians on Tuesday at a U.N. school where civilians had taken shelter, medical officials said, in carnage likely to boost international calls for a halt to Israel's Gaza offensive."

2. "In a separate attack earlier in the day, three Palestinians were killed in an airstrike on another school run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...5053R720090106

Thanks for that, the first attack, for some reason, was not reported on the news.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Do you have a link as to how many rocket attacks were made during the ceasefire? The graph you linked to shows rocket/mortar attacks upto november 2008.

November 2008 was during the cease fire? The cease fire was from summer to 23rd of December? (when Hamas went into overdrive and Israel went crazy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_2008#October

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

November 2008 was during the cease fire? The cease fire was from summer to 23rd of December? (when Hamas went into overdrive and Israel went crazy)

What Im trying to say is that the graph is for rocket attacks upto november 2008. Not necessarily during November 2008. As far as I am aware Hamas upheld the ceasefire. Israel say that they (Hamas) used that time to build up their stockpiles.

Timeline leading up to Israel's first air strikes, Hamas were really stepping up there rocket attacks:

December 23rd

At least five Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip struck the western Negev.[90]December 24thMore than 60 Qassam rockets and dozens of mortar shells struck homes, factories and a playground in southern Israel. Two longer ranged Grad-type missiles struck a public area in northern Ashkelon. Homes in Kibbutz Shaar Hanegev and Sdot Negev suffered serious damage from direct hits. A rocket also struck next to a playground in Netivot. One factory in the western Negev was hit twice. Several people in those areas were treated for shock.Two Palestinians were hurt when a rocket that did not clear the security fence at the border landed on a home in a northern Gaza town. [91]

December 26th

A dozen rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza into Israel, one accidentally falling short and striking a northern Gaza house and killing two Palestinian sisters, aged five and thirteen, while wounding a third[92][93]

December 27th (Israel starts war)

A 58 year old man was killed when a rocket from Gaza hit his apartment in Netivot. Also, the Israeli Air Force launched a large surprise attack on Hamas facilities in Gaza. At least 225 persons are killed, primarily Hamas personnel. The attack was launched in mid-morning in order to catch Hamas personnel at their normal posts. [94] The Israeli's call these attacks Operation Cast Lead. Hamas fired 130 Qassam rockets[95]

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

What Im trying to say is that the graph is for rocket attacks upto november 2008. Not necessarily during November 2008. As far as I am aware Hamas upheld the ceasefire. Israel say that they (Hamas) used that time to build up their stockpiles.

They didn't uphold it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_in_2008#July

List of rocket attacks since July (around the time of the cease fire).

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

Timeline leading up to Israel's first air strikes, Hamas were really stepping up there rocket attacks:

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------



They didn't uphold it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_in_2008#July

List of rocket attacks since July (around the time of the cease fire).

Actually they did, there are other groups in Gaza you know, in fact from your link

Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Actually they did, there are other groups in Gaza you know, in fact from your link

Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel.

At least some from that link were by Hamas..

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

Timeline leading up to Israel's first air strikes, Hamas were really stepping up there rocket attacks:

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------



They didn't uphold it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_in_2008#July

List of rocket attacks since July (around the time of the cease fire).

Damien, from the wiki link regarding the timeline of rocket attacks :-

June 27, 2008 Early on Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire. Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel. "The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement", he said following Friday prayers.[57]
Hamas were not linked directly to any rocket atttacks up until November the 6th. They infact told militants to uphold the truce.

November 6th Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border. The tunnel is to designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to founder.[73] Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.[74] Then, between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel.[75]
Here Hamas responded to what seems like an Israeli intrusion.

December 19th The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[87]
So in the 6months only 10& of rockets were fired into Israel compared to the previous 6 months , of which the first to be claimed by Hamas were in November (following Israeli soldiers killing 6 Gaza fighters)

[SMG]

Irrespective of who fired first, Hamas & Israel have an issue with each other. It is, or was, only a matter of time before something kicked off. Now it has. Its the people who are suffering, Israel will not settle for anything less than the demise of Hamas.

Makes you think which side are the terrorists doesnt it i know were my feelings lie

Originally Posted by bjorkiii

Makes you think which side are the terrorists doesnt it i know were my feelings lie

And it's the anger (on all sides) that keeps the conflict going (imho).

Everyone keeps harking back to "they did this, but they did that" - they should remember and learn from these events, and try not to repeat them, but not use them for justification for more and more escalation, because it will just get worse for all involved.

I really can't see reason being given a chance, but hope to be proved wrong.

Update - latest from BBC, on newspage reporting the 30 dead at the UN-run school.
"The BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says the contours of an agreement are taking shape - international monitors along the Egypt-Gaza border to stop Hamas smuggling weapons and firing rockets at Israel, and the creation of a humanitarian corridor in southern Gaza to ensure that aid goes to the Palestinians.
The question now is whether Hamas will accept such a deal and if a call for a ceasefire will be heeded by Israel, our correspondent says"

Here's hoping, for all concerned.

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

And it's the anger (on all sides) that keeps the conflict going (imho).

Everyone keeps harking back to "they did this, but they did that" - they should remember and learn from these events, and try not to repeat them, but not use them for justification for more and more escalation, because it will just get worse for all involved.

This seems to be a massive stumbling block on both sides, not just in Israel and Palestine but here as well, and I'd imagine anywhere this almost intractable nightmare is discussed.
After forty years of atrocities on both sides it becomes almost a pointless argument trying to constantly paint the other side as the aggressor, and yourself as the victim, what matters now is the future, next week, next month and next year.
From a Palestinian point of view they could really pile the pressure on Israel by going along with their commitments to the existing "road-map" to the letter, if they were to do this America would have to be more even handed and put pressure on Israel to follow suit.
It seems to me that Abu Mazen has cottoned on to this, if only he could get the leaders of Hamas to follow suit...because even Hamas must realise that they can't win a military victory which ends in the dissolution of Israel.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7817926.stm

For all those who condemned Hamas for using human shields, and said that the Israeli army was doing all it can to protect civilians and not target them on purpose.

Meanwhile Amnesty International accused both sides of using civilians as human shields. "Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position," it said in a statement.

The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded - neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestinian Red Crescent to assist the wounded


Pierre Wettach
ICRC head for Israel and the Palestinian territories

The International Committee of the Red Cross accused Israel of failing in its international obligations after its staff were met with "shocking" scenes.

One medical team found 12 bodies in a shelled house, and alongside them four very young children, too weak to stand, waiting by their dead mothers, the ICRC said.
Aid workers had been denied access to the site for days, it added.