Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[Mr Angry]

Apologies. As I said, I'm not an economist however banks in Wales did at one stage print their own banknotes if I recall correctly.

I don't believe I did "miss" a point. It's a fact that the electorate of the UK were not asked to vote on the saving of the banking system.

The UK openly loaned seveal billions to Ireland in recent years to shore up their economy so loans and underwriting where there are national interests / assets are concerned are not entirely unheard of.

Clearly you have a far greater grasp of the fiscal side of things than I could wish to have but from a laypersons point of view when it comes to banking and matters of sovereignty things are never as clear cut as you or I would like them to be. To that end, and based on the recklessness of the bankers in recent years, I don't rule anything out when it comes to finances & independence.

EDIT:

Just researched the Welsh banknote history and I see you are right. They were a very limited promissory note run back in the 60's. Cheers.

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Top banana

Personally I don't give a hoot about what happens, however you are the only person I have come across from Scotland who wants to break away, so I fully expect Scotland to carry on as it is today, So what are you going to do when you lose Jimi and realise you are in a minority?

Btw the use of tae rather than to makes it difficult to take you seriously.

That's odd because I know of just one person up here who is voting for BT.
It may take a wee while for folk down in England tae get over the break up,one thing that's for sure,many folk (I may have posted this before) may seek pastures new in the years ahead due tae the weather situation,the North Pole is melting incredibly fast,so people have a choice,stay put or move tae Scotland where they will be welcomed,they might even like it.


[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

[Kabaal]

Next up; The British Isles and how it will look after the zombie apocalypse.

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Kabaal

I'm honestly quite nervous about the vote. With all the nonsense surrounding it i think a lot of people aren't taking it seriously enough. If the vote ends up yes then Salmond and his cronies could well end up completely breaking everything. What happens then? Does he or his successor beg to be let back into the UK? I doubt they would take us back lol.

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Kabaal

Next up; The British Isles and how it will look after the zombie apocalypse.

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Erm no, Scotland did not vote for independence in the 1970s. There was a devolution referendum, which was defeated. The "technicality" was a quorum, which is a totally uncontroversial device in decisions involving constitutional change. IMO there should have been one in 1997 as well, although I believe Scotland would have met it. Wales certainly wouldn't and as a result the Assembly came into existence with the active support of fewer than 25% of Welsh voters.

I believe there should have been a quorum for this year's referendum as well. It can in no way be said to be the settled will of the Scottish people to effect permanent, radical constitutional change unless a majority of adults - all of them, not just the turnout - are sufficiently motivated to go out and vote for it.

Permanent and major constitutional changes should be demonstrated by more than 50% +1 of whichever voters turn out on the day. If the result is 49-51 for the union, the separatists will keep agitating forever and a day until they get what they want, arguing that opinions might have changed, but if it goes 51-49 the other way, the destruction of the modern British state will be permanent.

It's all very well you being happy with the consequences but our children have to live in the land we are at risk of birthing this year and we have a responsibility to them.

Cameron has been a pragmatist in allowing the seps to have their referendum, with votes for teens and no quorum, because he knew there was a risk that Salmond the ever-reckless would simply go ahead anyway and plan to try to fight for his result through the courts if necessary. But there is a real risk now, if the result is close, whichever way it falls, of long lasting social damage.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott...ferendum,_1979

I wonder if they will twist the vote tae suit the money men in London.

Originally Posted by Jimi

That's odd because I know of just one person up here who is voting for BT.
It may take a wee while for folk down in England tae get over the break up,one thing that's for sure,many folk (I may have posted this before) may seek pastures new in the years ahead due tae the weather situation,the North Pole is melting incredibly fast,so people have a choice,stay put or move tae Scotland where they will be welcomed,they might even like it.

It will not even appear on my radar - I don't care either way, although it will be funny watching it all go pear shaped if you get your way.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Jimi

That's odd because I know of just one person up here who is voting for BT.

Thats funny as there are clearly more people here who will vote No than Yes. Same goes for all the people I know in Glasgow. Yes votes are few and far between.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Apologies. As I said, I'm not an economist however banks in Wales did at one stage print their own banknotes if I recall correctly.

I don't believe I did "miss" a point. It's a fact that the electorate of the UK were not asked to vote on the saving of the banking system.

The UK openly loaned seveal billions to Ireland in recent years to shore up their economy so loans and underwriting where there are national interests / assets are concerned are not entirely unheard of.

Clearly you have a far greater grasp of the fiscal side of things than I could wish to have but from a laypersons point of view when it comes to banking and matters of sovereignty things are never as clear cut as you or I would like them to be. To that end, and based on the recklessness of the bankers in recent years, I don't rule anything out when it comes to finances & independence.

EDIT:

Just researched the Welsh banknote history and I see you are right. They were a very limited promissory note run back in the 60's. Cheers.

No problem. A number of English banks also issued notes, IIRC their right to do so lapsed if they closed down or were taken over - I need to do a bit more reading, it's an interesting part of our history. I believe the Scottish banks all still retain the right for, basically, political reasons.

The UK loan to Ireland amounted to £3.2 billion and, while it was offered bilaterally, it was a modest part of a larger international package of finance amounting to more than £50 billion.

The UK's bailout of its own banking system amounted, at its peak, to (wait for it ...) £1.1 trillion. £850 billion of that was thrown at RBS, a *Scottish* headquartered bank.

The Nats can say what they like about the healthy GDP of an independent Scotland, it simply would not have the cash, in absolute terms, to pay that sort of assistance to its own banking sector. With its own currency, it would have to print a fortune, devalue massively and wreck its international credit rating. Within a Sterling area, it would be down to rUK to ride to the rescue in order to protect Sterling for the sake of England, Wales and NI.

The UK's assistance to Ireland was, simply, a mere drop in the ocean and politically, and economically, it was perfectly defensible. The sorts of sums thrown at the Scottish part of the UK economy are, on the other hand, an entirely different matter and, IMO, just barely defensible so long as the money has been deployed within the domestic economy, to save the domestic economy. But to rescue a country that chose to alienate itself from rUK, opting to go its own way, but then needing that degree of rUK taxpayer help in time of need? That way lies serious trouble.

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Thats funny as there are clearly more people here who will vote No than Yes. Same goes for all the people I know in Glasgow. Yes votes are few and far between.

Wrong Stephen,the unionists will vote tae stay together.
BTW,as an aside,I'm on a forum called celticminded.com,I'm assuming you've heard of it before,as well as run of the mill Celtic websites such as KDS,The Huddle board,and TwistnTurns,they all voted heavily in favour of YES,as do Jambos Kickback,(where's there's an excellent debate on Independence) and the Hibs message boards,my cousin is a Rangers fan and on Follow Follow,they obviously want the BT,I'm sure you,as a Celtic fan,would back me up on these stats as I'm pretty certain you will have been on one or two forums,right?

[Stephen]

So if there is a yes vote in September. How will Scotland be able to keep the sterling pound?

Seen as all Scottish notes are not legal tender anywhere! All Scottish issued notes have to be backed up by English notes held by the issuing bank.

Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes are not legal tender anywhere, The fact that these banknotes are not legal tender in the UK does not however mean that they are illegal under English law, and creditors and traders may accept them if they so choose. Traders may, on the other hand, choose not to accept banknotes as payment as contract law across the United Kingdom allows parties not to engage in a transaction at the point of payment if they choose not to.

In Scotland and Northern Ireland, no banknotes, not even ones issued in those countries, are legal tender. They have a similar legal standing to cheques or debit cards, in that their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved, although Scots law requires any reasonable offer for settlement of a debt to be accepted

Most of the notes issued by the note-issuing banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland have to be backed by Bank of England notes held by the issuing bank. The combined size of these banknote issues is well over a billion pounds. To make it possible for the note-issuing banks to hold equivalent values in Bank of England notes, the Bank of England issues special notes with denominations of one million pounds ("Giants") and one hundred million pounds ("Titans") for internal use by the other banks.

So if allowed will these banks still have to hold English notes in their vaults, as the Scottish notes are really just worthless IOUs.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Jimi

Wrong Stephen,the unionists will vote tae stay together.
BTW,as an aside,I'm on a forum called celticminded.com,I'm assuming you've heard of it before,as well as run of the mill Celtic websites such as KDS,The Huddle board,and TwistnTurns,they all voted heavily in favour of YES,as do Jambos Kickback,(where's there's an excellent debate on Independence) and the Hibs message boards,my cousin is a Rangers fan and on Follow Follow,they obviously want the BT,I'm sure you,as a Celtic fan,would back me up on these stats as I'm pretty certain you will have been on one or two forums,right?

OK you're pretty sure the vote will turn out as a 'yes', we can all see that.

But hypothetically speaking, just imagine for a moment it turns out as a 'no'. What will you do then?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Jimi

Wrong Stephen,the unionists will vote tae stay together.
BTW,as an aside,I'm on a forum called celticminded.com,I'm assuming you've heard of it before,as well as run of the mill Celtic websites such as KDS,The Huddle board,and TwistnTurns,they all voted heavily in favour of YES,as do Jambos Kickback,(where's there's an excellent debate on Independence) and the Hibs message boards,my cousin is a Rangers fan and on Follow Follow,they obviously want the BT,I'm sure you,as a Celtic fan,would back me up on these stats as I'm pretty certain you will have been on one or two forums,right?

I sometimes visit KDS but only for the football threads. Personally I am BT because it makes more sense and the Yes team's white paper had so many holes in it, it was like swiss cheese.

There is nae need tae type 'tae' that doesnae make ya sound Scottish. Just looks pure daft like, ken?

It seems I have been wildly optimistic about SepScotland's ability to bail out RBS, even if it had full control of its own currency. The RBS balance sheet turns out to be 10 times larger than Scotland's GDP. No amount of money printing or international loans could cover that.

Not that I make a habit of quoting Vince Cable as gospel, but according to Jeremiah, Scotland would have to accept the need of its own currency, the cost of postage would go up and RBS would decline to take the risk of operating under Scottish control and shift its HQ to London, which would in turn blow a massive hole in a certain J. Swinney's tax assumptions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...nce-Cable.html

Originally Posted by Wad_2002

Yeah, I would be content as I would repspect there vote. But at the end of the day, if the majoirty vote was yes/no (putting voter turnout to the side this now)...I would respect this.

But this is where the draw back is Chris and the fundamental flaw of the "system" is Scotland cannot implement/influence policy decision making in Westminster becuase of the under re-presentation of the Scottish MP's. The same goes for NI, Wales, etc.. I realise we got devo, but sorry, it doesn't satasfy my need and nor would I expect it to satasfy the scottish parliaments needs.

We have 50 or so mp's in westminster out of a representation of 600 for the UK. How can SNP, Salmond or anyone for the fact change things for the better good.

P.s. I didn't want to quote your response to the pound question because of the size, but I acknowledge and respect your answer to my question. It certainly gave me a lesson

Its certainlly gave me a different way of looking at it. Yeah the euro is a complete mess and yes I have to agree there are risks on a unpredictable nature of sharing the currency with different polices on each side of the border in play.

I have said before Chris, I don't think leaving the UK is the answer, but uncertainlly over the currency aint going to stop me from voting yes. But this did not explain why Scotland cannot go alone and make a good one out of it.

I quote from DC -

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

And here is the full article, rather than just the bit quoted in the Yes Website....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...the-Union.html

Context is all....

[Stephen]

http://www.bettertogether.net/blog/e...urrency-claims

FACTS about the UK £....

[Jimi]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I sometimes visit KDS but only for the football threads. Personally I am BT because it makes more sense and the Yes team's white paper had so many holes in it, it was like swiss cheese.

There is nae need tae type 'tae' that doesnae make ya sound Scottish. Just looks pure daft like, ken?

Isn't it amazing how many folk have got their knickers in a twist because of the word 'tae' eh.
Och awrite then,whit a will dae is use the word 'no',is everywan happy noo.