Courtesy call from NTL - £10 fine if your late paying your bill !

[colin1234]

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

with regards to the breakdown of the non DD and late payment fee, i personally couldnt give you that info, but i would bet that the legal department could. it has been in force for months, have you heard of anyone successfully challenging this?

48% of UK customers pay by DD (NTL website)
According to a leaflet that came though my door a few months ago
NTL have approx 5 million customers,
So if we assume Ntl have a similer amount of customers paying by DD (48%)
if does not take long to work out that at £4.00 a month Ntl stand to make 9 to 10 million a month,that in no way can be justified as fair.
I have voted with my feet (at least i hope i have) and cancelled,but i do have grave concerns for people on low incomes,pensioners etc,who may not be able to have the benefit of DD.
I have contacted OFCOM stating these very points and was told that they are looking into it

[lostandconfused]

i think its a fair point about the non DD charge as some people dont have a choice if they cannot set up a DD with thier bank,

but the late payment fee is avoidable if the bill is paid on time

Originally Posted by theNomad

Then today got a automated phone call saying any late payment of the bill will mean they charge us a £10 fine. (is this actually legal to charge people fines for services being paid late). Its not like I pay late every month I guess around 3-4 times in 10 years, I mean everyone has hard times finding money, just a little tight right now putting money aside to get school uniforms for 4 kids.

Unfortunately ntl are within their right to charge 10.00 administration fee is they so wish so for payment of a bill late, I work for a telecommunications company who adopt this policy. Understandably its not could to get charged this but please remember ntl send the bill in advance and if payment isn't made on time then they reserve the right. Imagine how you would feel if ntl didnt give you a refund you would be straight on the phone so it works both ways

[bigbruce]

Originally Posted by xathras

please remember ntl send the bill in advance

No they don't. That is my problem with NTL. The date that they use to calculate late payment is not the payment due date, but the invoice date, so you can never pay your bill early as it takes several days for it to come through the post.

You always pay late according to NTL.

---------- Post added at 01:50 ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 ----------

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

i think its a fair point about the non DD charge as some people dont have a choice if they cannot set up a DD with thier bank,

but the late payment fee is avoidable if the bill is paid on time

I know the late payment fee is avoidable, but you have to know what the rules are first.

NTL deliberately seem to muddy the issue by giving 2 dates on your invoice, the invoice date and the payment due date. Any reasonable person would expect late payment to start after the payment due date has passed, not after the invoice date which is some 14? days earlier.

It's just a case of sharp practise to catch the unwary and make unjustified money.

[big_rayster]

Originally Posted by xathras

Unfortunately ntl are within their right to charge 10.00 administration fee is they so wish so for payment of a bill late, I work for a telecommunications company who adopt this policy. Understandably its not could to get charged this but please remember ntl send the bill in advance and if payment isn't made on time then they reserve the right. Imagine how you would feel if ntl didnt give you a refund you would be straight on the phone so it works both ways

If i may correct you here, NTL are within their rights to charge you an admin/late payment/penalty, call it what you will, it is the amount they are charging that is illegal! Nobody is above the law, not even company policy! unless NTL or ANY company can provide a breakdown of the amount the want to charge you, and to be honest up to now NTL can't, then they cannot charge you that amount. And for fear of repeating myself -

Penalty clauses in contracts in English (and Scottish) law for breach of contract are not legal if the penalty exceeds the actual cost of the breach of either party.

So can we get off the "NTL/or whatever tel-co company you work for, are well within their right to....blah, blah ,blah" as it is starting to get boring and you're making yourself look daft! yes if you pay your bill on time and via DD, have 2.4 children, take two holidays each year, walk the dog every evening and be in bed by 9PM then everything in the garden is rosey! You don't know everybody's' circumstances and they may not be able to pay DD or ontime for the next two months, oh and one more thing........you've had a refund off NTL?........stop it you're killing me!....lol!

[Jules]

Damn just remembered I have not paid my last bill yet, I better go ring the bank now and get the money transfered

[Okonski]

I've now been a costomer of NTL (Cabletel originally) for 15 years, and during this time NTL have had a continuous process of changing their terms and conditions - at each stage the benefits to the consumer have become eroded, and what ntl can do against you (as a customer) has been strengthened. It is very difficult to hold respect for a company that makes no account of your loyalty and previous contribution to profits, and then do the following;

1) Report any late payment or disconnection to a credit reference agency, whilst
2) Charging you £10 for paying 'late'
3) Charging you £20 for 'Reconnection' after a computer has turned off your services, which could mean the total loss of TV, telephone and Broadband.
4) Charging you an additional £48 each year because you didn't make payment by one of their 'preferred' methods.
5) Remove the ability to contact Faults, Customer Service and Sales at no cost either via short code, or an 0800 Freefone number.
6) Print a monthly invoice that for some reason takes exactly 7 days before you receive it (my Invoice is always dated around 14th of each month, but NEVER arrives before 21st).

The effects are cumulative, I wait to be corrected, but should you have a billing issue that requires investigation there is every likelyhood that ntl will not resolve the issue and advise the correct payment due - the 'system' takes over and fines are stancked up ready to hit you on the next bill, starting the dispute all over again.

My last action was I had a billing overcharge, and on taking it up with CS was advised the amount would be credited to my account, so I could pay the remaining balance, which I did. Within a week I received a letter stating I had underpaid by £20 (the amount overcharged and supposedly credited). I responded to the letter writer, pointing out the error. I received a folllow-up letter stating my services would be interrupted if I did not pay the £20 by return, I responded again, stating there was no outstanding balance, and serving notice that should by services be disrupted I would reserve the right to charge ntl £50 per day for the loss of all three services.

Needless to say, the services were removed and it took 3 days to get them back on (and without paying them the £20 not owed). I demanded £150 for service loss and complained directly to Manchester. The end result was a bill credit of £50, plus package enhancements that made the arrangement for £162, so honour was satisfied.

Then the next bill arrived, complete with a £20 'fine' for service disconnection, which was applied 2 weeks after the compensation was paid. Calling CS to point out the error, I was told that irrespective of whether ntl had compensated me for the loss of service, the £20 fine was still justified. Back to Manchester again, and they were prepared to waive the fee.

The bottom line is I and many other customer spend a great deal of time and effort looking after our finances, yet at every turn ntl and companies like them use every trick in the book to lever extra £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£'s because the bulk of us will just roll over.

Don't let them get away with it

Finally, do remember getting ntl to provide you with all services leaves you at the mercy of a communications black hole should they get it wrong (and they do). The prospect of finding my mobile phone going dead also because of some imagined billing issue just doesn't bear thinking about!

ntl will state in there contract that any miss payment can lead to disconnection and the possibility of admistering an administration charge. Don't ask me where in the contract, I know exactly were it states this is the company i work for contract

[lostandconfused]

a lot of people have mentioned the illegality of charging £10. as ive mentioned before if you pay on time you can easily avoid it.

however if you feel so strongly about it, why not put your money where your mouth is so to speak, take ntl to court and make a president, if your that confident you'll win im sure a lot of people will thank you.

[popper]

Originally Posted by xathras

ntl will state in there contract that any miss payment can lead to disconnection and the possibility of admistering an administration charge. Don't ask me where in the contract, I know exactly were it states this is the company i work for contract

indeed im sure you know exactly were the passage is in your companys consumer T&C/contract, is it some secret were this online document is xathras ?, if not point the readers here to it please.

you are also aware, im sure, that just because a consumer contract/T&C states a clause in said contract in favour of the company , does not make it binding if it can be shown, or there exists already, case law, that states it is an unfair clause and hence non binding or enforcable.

that anyone can go to the their local court house or even online today, and file a case against said company (and even individuals within that company) apparently for the grand total of £0 for people on state benefits and/or low income, the cost on average for working people apparently being around £120/£150 that can by all acounts be reclaimed in restitution after winning the case.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart...mer+debt++-+UK

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

a lot of people have mentioned the illegality of charging £10. as ive mentioned before if you pay on time you can easily avoid it.

however if you feel so strongly about it, why not put your money where your mouth is so to speak, take ntl to court and make a precident, if your that confident you'll win im sure a lot of people will thank you.

illegality ,that would be unlawful ,illegal relates to criminal law, not consumer/common law.

it takes more than one lower court case to set a precident, but if ntl:tw keeps going the way it does
then it may just come to that , after all 1900+ lost customers and growing,could do very large damage to ntl if they made a case of it, thanks for your idea that they consider it, thats good advice.

there is masses of information in regards 'unlawful charges goods and services' coming to light as are the data controllers responseabilitys (such as the NTL:tw DC licence covers) in relation to the data protection act, consumer, and common law,thanks to the banks and DCA actions to date forcing people to sit up and take note..........

perhaps in a way , the average consumer of goods and services such as NTl provide, should be thankful to the banks etc, forcing them to, shall we say, correct the current errors NTL:tw and others are operating under in the name of mass profit.

can they keep telling/insisting us we are wrong, when its clear in law we are not, the same cant be said of the NTL:tw as it currently operates ,if NTL (their employees that make the company etc)were perhaps far more flexable in such things as the above from Okonski and so on then NTL wouldnt have lost so many customers and NTL would'nt then have a need to consider laying off workers in the UK , with perhaps more to come? .

http://search.ntlworld.com/ntlworld/...s&cr=&x=40&y=5


http://www.cartoonstock.com/director...aces_gifts.asp

no the conditions are not hidden, just to point out here i do not work for ntl. Every customer that signs up to our company is sent a copy of the terms and conditions. On both first page and back page of the handbook the administration charge is mentioned.

I understand that you feel very strongly about this issue but do you actually know how much a month bad debts cost companies, for example I know we have 1.8 million outstanding from the prior months bill cycle that have been unallocated, of which around 1.3m will be covered before the issue is referred to a debt agency.

When a debt is sold on to the agency in some instances the company may for example get 60% of the actual amount oustanding. i.e. if you owe 100, the company only gets £60.00 a lose of £40.00.

Lost revenue = less revenue, less revenue = less money both on new investments and profits.

[lostandconfused]

the point i was trying to make was if you feel that it is illegal / unlawful (as you can tell i am not a lawyer so please forgive my errors) why not do something about it? has anyone here succesfully taken ntl to court regarding the £10 late payment fee?

i havent heard anything about it.

with regards to losing customers you can state the number of customers lost per day, week, month or year as its irrelevant. If ntl were losing money on the late payment fee it would stop pretty quick.

when a customer leaves generally they are pretty honest about the reason when they are speaking to retentions, especially if its about the late payment fee as im sure most of them would rather have it credited back than go to the effort of getting a new supplier. therefore ntl are fully aware of why customers are leaving.

you also say about ntl:TW staff being more flexible? a late payment, is a late payment. it doesnt matter if its a day late or a year late. A business operates on cash flow. if all of your customers pay all thier bills a week late, very soon it will add up and could cause the business serious trouble.

so this needs to be discouraged, sending out a letter threatening disconnection isnt really going to make many people that worried, whereas a penalty is.

also why should customers who pay regularly and on time have to pay for customers who are regularly late in paying thier bill, i think everyone will agree there is a cost to a company when someone pays late (whether or not its £10 is up to you) if there is no penalty then ulimately that cost will be spread amongst all paying customers.

[popper]

MCOL
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/
"
Making a claim

If someone owes you money and you cannot settle things in any other way, you may decide to issue a claim through the county court. People also issue claims for other reasons, including:

• bad workmanship;
• damage to their property;
• road traffic accidents;
• personal injury;
• goods not supplied; and
• faulty goods "

http://www.esd.informationcommission...esd/search.asp
Data Protection Public Register

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-compared.html
Moneyclaim and hardcopy claim compared
http://www.grumbletext.co.uk/page.php?pn=gtclaims
"

The Small Claims Court and its online cousin, Money Claim Online, are not services provided by or associated with Grumbletext. However, they can be very effective routes in dispute resolution which many consumers will not be aware of and this page is designed to give you an introduction as to what they entail, and links to the relevant sites/pages. "
"
Are you aware?
The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) says a contract is considered unfair if it 'causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations under the contract to the detriment of the consumer'. Find out more "

one example of how NTL were made to change their unfair T&C
http://www.oft.gov.uk/Search+Results
enter ntl unfair in search
"
http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/E...4/0/oft686.pdf

Unfair contract terms
bulletins 24 and 25
Case reports April to September 2003
Part of a series of bulletins giving
details of cases where the OFT or
another body has secured significant
changes in contract terms.
The purpose of the bulletins
is to enable consumer advisers
and consumers to monitor whether
businesses are honouring the
changes they have agreed to make."

"
Original
term
Application of the
Regulations (Schedule 2
paragraph or as indicated)
How changed New
term
6.2 and
20.1(i)
1(l): permitted the supplier
the right to increase charges
whilst only providing that
advance notice of changes
would be displayed in main
offices and that the supplier
would only attempt to give
reasonable notice of any
increases likely to affect a
significant proportion of
customers. If consumers
were not provided with
adequate advance notice of
changes, they could not
exercise their rights to
cancel in these
circumstances (under term
20.1(i)) without penalty, as
they would already have
been affected by the
increases before giving the
required 30 days' notice to
cancel.

Term 20.1(i) revised so that
consumers can cancel
following notification of an
increase under term 6.2 or
receiving their first bill after
an increase (whichever is
the earlier) without penalty
(ie without the increased
charged being applied).
Term 6.2 includes a crossreference
to the cancellation
provisions in term 20.1(i).
6.2 and
20.1(i)"

[lostandconfused]

you still havent answered the question though, if you feel so strongly about it, why dont you do something about it..

[theNomad]

I just came to say I had a automated phone call today and it now clearly says "the £10 fine is for anyone not paying the bill within 30 days" so as this changed since two months ago, because I paid the day after my bill was due (but with paying PP had to wait 3 days for it to clear in the system) and got the fine plus that reconnection fee ?

I do think anyone who makes payment 30 days late is either having major problems or is intending to run and a fine probably wouldnt do either these good, I mean 30 days you can't really blame that on an over sight.

But that doesnt help me out where I stand when I got fined for being a max of 4 days late, also how much does it cost ntl to reconnect you ? cause during that time I had my calls put to incoming only and my tv still had all the terrestrial channels. So what reconnecting do they really have to do.

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

you still havent answered the question though, if you feel so strongly about it, why dont you do something about it..

I am doing something about it, I'm leaving. And by the sounds of a alot of people so are they. I think by the fact you havent got droves of ntl employees speaking up against the views/comments in this thread proves theres seriously something out of order this time, cause theres always the die hard employees who stand up and tell us we are wrong.

'Okonski' sums it up best for me with this line

"It is very difficult to hold respect for a company that makes no account of your loyalty and previous contribution to profits"

I pay around £85 per month thats £1020 per year, in around the 10 years I've been with cable (I know its changed hands with nynex & cable'n'wireless) but thats £10,200 yet NTL are a company who seem to work on the philosophy that it can lose older customers, as long as its gaining ground with new ones courtesy of cheap sign up deals.

Clearly we who've used the service for 5-10 or even more years arnt the bad customers who never pay or the ones who probably do deserve to be fined or axe from system, yet we are the ones being punished or are paying more than people who've just signed up are paying.