Capping & Cloning - Page 3

DaggaDagga · 13-10-2005, 20:08

Hello all. I've been reading this forum almost daily for a long time, and have had NTL broadband for years (legally, I emphasise!). I couldn't help but sign up and reply on this thread.

I have also been concerned about the amount of fraud going on on NTL's network. If you want free broadband then I understand it's not too difficult.

If you want full access to all the TV channels, with a better STB than NTL's own then you only have to search ebay for the right word (I won't say what) and you'll find a list of German STBs ready to plug into NTL's network for around the price of a month's TV subscription.

Let's not pretend that NTL would reduce any prices if they stopped the fraud. They charge as much as they can get away with, priced to compete with the ADSL providers and Sky TV.

I don't believe that NTL would be able to detect a modem with a cloned MAC address, and the STBs from Ebay are impossible to detect, as they don't transmit anything back up the cable. They can not press a button and see the percentage of dodgy users that are out there. I suspect that they're under-estimating the problem by a large margin.

It all reminds me of the old ITV Digital fraud. I know that there were other factors in their downfall, but what started out as a few people with hacked boxes spread like a plague and was huge when the company went bust. This must have been a factor in their downfall.

NTL need to very quickly take major action to stop this. I'm no expert but they must be able to crank up their TV encryption to stop the Ebay STBs - Sky does not have any similar problems. Similarly, there must also be something they can do to stop the free broadband. Otherwise, the paying customers start to find it difficult to justify continuing to pay for what it seems like everyone else is getting for free (and getting away with it).

Grassing up one person would be a drop in the ocean. NTL needs to take much more drastic steps to combat this, before it starts to seriously suffer financially.

Just my thoughts. Please tell me I'm talking cr@p!

Scopeuk · 13-10-2005, 20:16

detecting a cloned modem whouldent be imposible scanning for mac addrresse that show up more than once whould revel them then the results could be crossrefernced with the client database to find whcih is the real one then by tracking through there routers and ubrs they couldlocate the area of the cloned modem and ifneeded nplug it at the "green box".
im prety sure that the tv boxes do use some upstream conection to ntl but i dont knwo enough about the technology to elaborate

DaggaDagga · 13-10-2005, 20:24

It sounds like a lot of effort to detect one dodgy subscriber. There must be a way they would improve their technology (i.e. prevention), rather than relying on catching the odd one every now and then.

mcmanic · 13-10-2005, 20:24

they don't , they have the talkback cut, you still need the orginal box, the new one unscrambles the encrypted signals and automatically generates keys as and when, and yes its a major thing now, even to the point that normal people are asking where to get them because really they ain't that costly now

DaggaDagga · 13-10-2005, 20:39

You don't even need an NTL box any more, that was last year's method! There's a German STB in limitless supply that will get every channel, even PPV movies. These are simple to get hold of. AFAIK, there is nothing illegal about supplying them, so NTL are powerless to stop it.

There's even a version with a built-in hard disk, custom-made by a UK company! Sky+ for NTL, with none of that nasty subscription stuff!

They really need to get a grip on this - it's almost out of control already.

SOSAGES · 13-10-2005, 20:48

so just to clear this up for me but these people with cloned modems and hax0red stb have to actually of paid for an ntl guy to come round and hook them up sometime? and then what they cancel and just plug their own kit in? or do they walk outside grab some wires and do it all them selves

bdav · 13-10-2005, 21:00

Hang on - Sky is meant to have one of the most advanced anti piracy systems. The only difference is the delivery - but how much difference does that make? The only thing i can see restricting using better encryption is the power in the boxes. I suppose at some point they must have weighed the cost of more powerfull STBs against the piracy rate, and gone with the cheaper box option.

BBKing · 13-10-2005, 21:11

Quote:

I don't believe that NTL would be able to detect a modem with a cloned MAC address

On the contrary, it's remarkably easy. Further details will not be gone into, obviously, but it's not difficult, a smallish modern server and a bit of perl can do it in under a minute.

DaggaDagga · 13-10-2005, 21:18

To get the cable connected, there are two possibilities:

1. Live in a house where the previous resident had NTL. I know someone who bought a house several years ago. It has a cable point, they have never subscribed to anything. It is connected. I know that they are using the cable as an analogue aerial. This is a bit dodgy in itself, but it's hardly the fraud of the century. If they were so inclined, they could plug in as many dodgy STBs and modems as they like.

2. Get the cheapest TV or broadband subscription, then steal everything. Cancel this subscription after a year, if they actually get round to disconnecting it (not very likely) then subscribe again.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBKing

On the contrary, it's remarkably easy. Further details will not be gone into, obviously, but it's not difficult, a smallish modern server and a bit of perl can do it in under a minute.

Why don't they do it then? Do NTL even have a department that is solely in charge of monitoring the freeloaders? Anyone from NTL could search google, ebay etc and easily see that there is a major problem.

sollp · 13-10-2005, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynwa

NTL do nothing about cloned modems. They are big business in my area. I know 100s who use them. Most dont even pay NTL for any service. Free TV and Internet and nothing is done about it, while those who download what NTL deem to be too much get punished.

As has already been said and will continue to be said, the cloning of modems and selling of chipped boxes is well know about in NTL, as you can imagine the issue is looked into and they will prosecute when found. But that is the problem, if your saying you know people who are doing it then why don't you help out and do something about it!

DaggaDagga · 13-10-2005, 21:41

I don't personally know anyone using this gear, but if I did then I honestly doubt whether I would turn them over. I don't think many people would, and it would be a mistake for any company to hope that people would do the right thing, especially as this fraud doesn't harm them personally. Most people find it difficult to care about a large PLC that takes money off them every month!

It's down to NTL to make their systems secure to prevent them losing revenue. I haven't seen many signs of them doing this.

In the past, Sky have changed their encryption and sent out new subscriber cards to all their customers whenever their system has been hacked. Why can't NTL do something similar? Or would all new STBs be needed?

Chrysalis · 13-10-2005, 22:37

I havent previously said much on this but I agree with whats been said, I think the problem is much worse then anticipated. In my area there are people selling dodgy STB's in the school playground and I think ntl tv fraud is rampant. Cloning seems to be of lower numbers as I think its round less social circles on how to do it but is another problem that shouldnt be ignored especially when we start having cloned 10mbit sessions.

The big problem is I think the only way people get caught is when they are grassed up, there seems to be no technology like a scanner that is continously looking for these freeloader's and no manpower either. I dont know if prices would be lower, I think they would be for the base tv pack at least, the base pack is probably charged higher then needed because ntl know many people will subscribe to that at least even if they are stealing premium content. I think premium prices and broadband would be unaffected, possibly just higher broadband caps.

dark0neb0 · 13-10-2005, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaggaDagga

I don't personally know anyone using this gear, but if I did then I honestly doubt whether I would turn them over. I don't think many people would, and it would be a mistake for any company to hope that people would do the right thing, especially as this fraud doesn't harm them personally. Most people find it difficult to care about a large PLC that takes money off them every month!

It's down to NTL to make their systems secure to prevent them losing revenue. I haven't seen many signs of them doing this.

In the past, Sky have changed their encryption and sent out new subscriber cards to all their customers whenever their system has been hacked. Why can't NTL do something similar? Or would all new STBs be needed?

i agree, it shouldnt be us doing the work for them. they have our money at the end of the month, we worked hard to earn the goal of a paycheck... so NTL must work hard to earn the goal of MORE CUSTOMERS, LESS BOOTLEGS.

afaik, the protection logic is stored inside the STB / dumb-card, theres nothing on NTL's end deciding what is valid, all the channels are sent regardless, this is why those 'german boxes' will work fine over here... its like tuning in a radio.

its mostly NTL engineers that sell the modded stuff because they have it to hand, if not them its a messenger for them. NTL is getting bummed by its own cock, lol.

as long as im not paying anymore because of their errors, i dont really care... i have my own issues to take care of.

14-10-2005, 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangebird

I replied to you about this yesterday on TOS. ntl are constantly dealing with those in receipt of illegally gotten services. Why do you feel the need to have to come over here and post about it too? You've gone and gotten the same answers....

What's she like...

14-10-2005, 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodger444

What's she like...

very nice actually