Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

Teachers are salaried over 12 months ,they get paid for the 13 weeks holiday ,it doesn't matter how you try to spin it .
The main problem in my opinion is that contracted hours are almost equal to term time which is a problem .Why can't teachers be contracted to work all year round with 5.6 minimum weeks holiday the same as everyone else ? That way they wouldn't be doing so much work out of hours .

Teachers are not paid for the 13 weeks holiday. Try reading one of their contracts. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, that's the contract. Changing them to the same holiday periods as other workers means paying them more as their contracted hours go up. I doubt that the government have any appetite for that.

A large part of the work teachers do out of hours is planning and marking. Planning is dependent on previous lessons, marking has to be done in a timely fashion else Ofsted get upset.

A lot of the work teachers do is reactive to events during contact time. What do you suggest teachers do working for weeks on end with no contact time? They can't plan their lessons for the next year. They can't save their marking up.

Interesting ... missus' SLA contract gives her 4 weeks paid holiday, to be taken as they arise, but not only is she unpaid for the summer break, she's not actually employed during that period. Nevertheless her salary is paid in 12 equal instalments.

Originally Posted by Chris

Interesting ... missus' SLA contract gives her 4 weeks paid holiday, to be taken as they arise, but not only is she unpaid for the summer break, she's not actually employed during that period. Nevertheless her salary is paid in 12 equal instalments.

Thats exactly how it works, you are paid for 4 weeks of holiday, but your actual payments are spread evenly across the year.

Anyone who says they have 13 weeks paid holiday is wrong, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Teachers are not paid for the 13 weeks holiday. Try reading one of their contracts. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, that's the contract. Changing them to the same holiday periods as other workers means paying them more as their contracted hours go up. I doubt that the government have any appetite for that.

A large part of the work teachers do out of hours is planning and marking. Planning is dependent on previous lessons, marking has to be done in a timely fashion else Ofsted get upset.

A lot of the work teachers do is reactive to events during contact time. What do you suggest teachers do working for weeks on end with no contact time? They can't plan their lessons for the next year. They can't save their marking up.

There is no holiday entitlement specified in the contract. Teachers are salaried for 12 months ,they get paid during the summer months regardless of whether they are in school or not so all this talk of working unpaid during holidays is quite frankly complete bollocks because as part of the contract they are required to work any reasonable hours even if that means going over the 1265 hrs and looking at the pay scales the wage isn't that bad for 195 days work

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul M

Thats exactly how it works, you are paid for 4 weeks of holiday, but your actual payments are spread evenly across the year.

Anyone who says they have 13 weeks paid holiday is wrong, plain and simple.

As i just posted ,there is no holiday entitlement in a teachers contract because (presumably) they are only contracted for 195 days a year .They will however get statutory days the same as anyone else and they certainly do not do unpaid work

Originally Posted by martyh

As i just posted ,there is no holiday entitlement in a teachers contract because (presumably) they are only contracted for 195 days a year .They will however get statutory days the same as anyone else and they certainly do not do unpaid work

I presume from that teachers are different then, I can only tell how the school support staff work (locally) since they also have the same "13 weeks" holidays (my other half works in a local school kitchen). Either way, they dont get 13 weeks paid holiday, and thier pay is evenly spread across the year, to avoid a big pay gap in the summer.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

As i just posted ,there is no holiday entitlement in a teachers contract because (presumably) they are only contracted for 195 days a year .They will however get statutory days the same as anyone else and they certainly do not do unpaid work

So working outside of contracted time isn't unpaid work.

Makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Paul M

I presume from that teachers are different then, I can only tell how the school support staff work (locally) since they also have the same "13 weeks" holidays (my other half works in a local school kitchen). Either way, they dont get 13 weeks paid holiday, and thier pay is evenly spread across the year, to avoid a big pay gap in the summer.

As far as i know they are the only profession without any holiday entitlement written into their contracts,so ,yes , teachers are a special case and i still have to ask the question why is this so .It seems daft to me that we are trying to cram so much stuff into so short a time .

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So working outside of contracted time isn't unpaid work.

Makes perfect sense.

And if you read the contract you will see it quite clearly states that a teacher is required to work any reasonable hours to perform their duties ,this is covered in their salary and cannot be scheduled by their employer ,it is up to the teacher to manage that extra time as it is required .

[Arthurgray50@blu]

When l went to school, yes, over 40 years ago. It was nearly the same as today. The only thing was you needed your brains to sort out questions, instead of computers, with possible answers.

But, we have the Government saying that children need education to go onto further education. Then just change the holiday system.

I simply cannot understand why they six weeks at Summer. Just give them One month, and just add those extra days throughout the year.

Some schools have two weeks Half term - why. Or Easter this year, they had two weeks, why.

I school time was 9am start and finish at 3.45.

Some schools near me start at 8.45 and finish at three

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

When l went to school, yes, over 40 years ago. It was nearly the same as today. The only thing was you needed your brains to sort out questions, instead of computers, with possible answers.

Yes, well, fear not. The current government are busily ruining the developments in education since then and forcing students to learn via rote rather than learning creative problem solving because, you know, that's key in the workplace now. Rote learning is rigorous.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I simply cannot understand why they six weeks at Summer. Just give them One month, and just add those extra days throughout the year.

Some schools have two weeks Half term - why. Or Easter this year, they had two weeks, why.

There's been a fortnight in between terms for ages? You want them to take days out of the summer and add them throughout the year, but are complaining about the length of holidays outside of the summer period?

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I school time was 9am start and finish at 3.45.

Part-timer. I was 9-4.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Some schools near me start at 8.45 and finish at three

Yet the kids for the most part leave far better educated than we were. Go figure. Less can sometimes be more.

Marty, you're back on my ignore list again so feel free to not waste your time responding. I have better things to do, even when wasting my time on here, than go back and forth with someone as obstinate as yourself. An authority on everything, utterly incapable of even entertaining anyone else's posting is tiresome. Your prodigious intellect is clearly wasted working in construction, you should be Professor of Everything in a red brick university.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Interesting ... missus' SLA contract gives her 4 weeks paid holiday, to be taken as they arise, but not only is she unpaid for the summer break, she's not actually employed during that period. Nevertheless her salary is paid in 12 equal instalments.

The contract here is somewhat different. Teachers are employed over the summer break by the LA however they are not paid for it. They are paid for the legally mandated minimum period of holidays and anything after those is unpaid.

This is how it's supposed to work in theory. Works quite differently on a day-to-day basis, at least in all the schools my wife has worked.

[tweetiepooh]

Summer holidays - that time of the year that parents realise how grossly underpaid teachers are.

Teaching is a job with a great deal of stress and hard work and the best teachers are the ones who put the time in out of hours to do the prep, learn the new stuff and work out how to communicate that. The easier the teacher seems to do their job is usually indicative of all that extra work. Now we live in a "nice" area and most pupils want to learn and most parents are supportive, that is also not always the case.

Teachers need that long summer to both have a holiday themselves (and their families) and also prepare for the next term/year. Not helped by someone central wanting to push more learning and earlier and marking/monitoring it. Pity both teachers and younger kids. Too little time for play and learning the basics in a fun way to accommodate some of the new targets.
===
Our previous primary head would let kids go on holiday during term time (within reason) as she took the view that the holiday would be as beneficial to their learning as being in school. I guess the depended on the child, parents, time, age and destination. So 2 weeks in the Greek islands with an able child and parents that would expose child to local culture would score higher than 2 weeks in Disney resort with a struggling child and parents who just wanted to take advantage of cheap prices. This freedom has now gone. We are taking our 2 out of last couple of days of term this year because it was only way to fit the time into other events. Not going to be a lot of teaching in that period, shame youngest will miss her last days at primary.

[rogerdraig]

just in case i confuse (dyslexic sometimes i get confused by my posts )

1 I think most good teachers are underpaid and over worked

2 i dont agree that term time holiday are always detrimental and parents should be the ones deciding that

3 i think that messing about with the holidays is daft unless done nationally or at least making sure ALL local schools follow the same days where they are in the catchment stream ( i mean by that the feeder school where younger siblings may be and even the six form or colleges where older ones may be are synced else it makes it much harder for families)

however if we are going to muck about with holidays i would have thought it should involve moving exams to a different time of year when its not so hot the chances of hay fever are lower etc then move the holidays around to take advantage of the warmer weather and have a real discussion with parents and maybe even employers to get times and length to best suit the majority

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Marty, you're back on my ignore list again so feel free to not waste your time responding. I have better things to do, even when wasting my time on here, than go back and forth with someone as obstinate as yourself. An authority on everything, utterly incapable of even entertaining anyone else's posting is tiresome. Your prodigious intellect is clearly wasted working in construction, you should be Professor of Everything in a red brick university.

I simply read the contract YOU suggested we all read before having the audacity to comment on something nobody but yourself could possibly understand ,it really is quite simple

In addition to the hours a teacher is required to be available for
work under sub-paragraph 4 or sub-paragraph 6, as the case may
be, a teacher must work such reasonable additional hours as may
be necessary to enable the effective discharge of the teacher’s
professional duties, including, in particular, those under paragraphs
72.1.1 and 72.1.3.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by rogerdraig

just in case i confuse (dyslexic sometimes i get confused by my posts )

1 I think most good teachers are underpaid and over worked

True.

2 i dont agree that term time holiday are always detrimental and parents should be the ones deciding that.

Now, this is where I'll get shouted at by the parents, but I can see the problem the current system was meant to address.

Back when I went to school, some parents were taking their kids out of school 2 or 3 times a year, to go on Holiday. Others were taking their kids on holiday for up to month, In both cases, this was during term time, which may have been having severe negative effects on their kids education.

The current system is far from perfect. I think it could be made a lot better by banning holiday and travel companies from upping their prices during holiday time. After all, the travel industry is the only one that raises it's prices according to demand. You don't pay more for a TV, computer or car at certain times of the year, why should you be expected to pay more for air travel or a hotel?

3 i think that messing about with the holidays is daft unless done nationally or at least making sure ALL local schools follow the same days where they are in the catchment stream ( i mean by that the feeder school where younger siblings may be and even the six form or colleges where older ones may be are synced else it makes it much harder for families)

however if we are going to muck about with holidays i would have thought it should involve moving exams to a different time of year when its not so hot the chances of hay fever are lower etc then move the holidays around to take advantage of the warmer weather and have a real discussion with parents and maybe even employers to get times and length to best suit the majority

I think to some extent, the Local Education Authorities have always been free to alter the holidays a little, but not sure how this works now, especially with the Academies which aren't usually LEA controlled.

[Osem]

The current system is far from perfect. I think it could be made a lot better by banning holiday and travel companies from upping their prices during holiday time. After all, the travel industry is the only one that raises it's prices according to demand. You don't pay more for a TV, computer or car at certain times of the year, why should you be expected to pay more for air travel or a hotel?

The reason you don't tend to pay more for a TV at certain times of the year is that the supply of TV's isn't restricted at those times of year. If there was a sudden large spike in demand for TV's for some weird reason you'd find prices would go up just like prices of HDDs went up when there were supply problems in the Far East a few years ago. As for travel, it's common to pay more for the same travel during peak periods because the same supply/demand argument applies.

During holiday times there is far more demand for the same supply so prices will go up and if companies were prevented from doing I'd have thought they'd have to cover that by increasing their prices for other times of the year.

Well us OAPs would be disadvantaged that's for sure.