Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah

Originally Posted by Will21st

Because Socialists realise that Communism can't be attained in one fell swoop and try to introduce it gradually,chipping away at capitalism and private ownership bit by bit.

No they don't! There are plenty of Scandinavian countries, European countries, with varying socialist structures that aren't communist and show no apparent movement into becoming so. It's like saying anyone on the right really wants to become fascists.

Of course tax needs to be levied for defence,policing,some social security,building roads and some infrastructure. Where I begin to object is this whole Bingo wheel of do-gooderism and 'giving this group more than the others because they may need it' nonsense.

Then it's all a matter of degrees.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by danielf

Okay, talk about weird... If the goal of socialism is communism, then why have socialism in the first place?

It seems to me that people are just playing silly semantic games here. It's perfectly possible to support the notion that those who earn more pay in a bit more (but get to keep more as well), without hankering for a world where everyone earns the same and the state controls everything. And anyone who is even going to suggest different needs to have his head examined.

Didn't Marx describe socialism as the steps towards communism and the soviets described themselves as socialists working towards communism.

That doesn't mean the goal is communism in all cases (certainly not from UK socialists) but I offer historic context for the reference.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by downquark1

Didn't Marx describe socialism as the steps towards communism and the soviets described themselves as socialists working towards communism.

That doesn't mean the goal is communism in all cases (certainly not from UK socialists) but I offer historic context for the reference.

There may be a historical context in which it is true, but that's not the context of the current debate, which appears to be that everyone whose political leanings are not to the right of the centre, is a socialist and therefore a communist in waiting who must therefore support an all-controlling state that is partial to genocide.

I would suggest that this position is a tad removed from reality.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by danielf

There may be a historical context in which it is true, but that's not the context of the current debate, which appears to be that everyone whose political leanings are not to the right of the centre, is a socialist and therefore a communist in waiting who must therefore support an all-controlling state that is partial to genocide.

I would suggest that this position is a tad removed from reality.

I agree.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

That isn't unique to socialism. There are degrees and variations of socialism, there isn't a single form of it that is easy to define.

Also it's not hard to forget how controlling Labour were because this Government aren't much different, despite being mostly Conservative.

Really? You mean going from a government that was urinating our futures up the wall and doling it out to all and sundry is no different from a government that is actually trying to get us out of the deep dung we're in? Hmm,we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Damien

It is a meaningless sound bite. It's up there with 'hardworking families' or other such bumper sticker slogans. It doesn't really mean anything. You don't build the roads you use, the schools you attended, the policy who protect you. Living in a society means these matters are pooled across many and the only difference is a disagreement where the state should get involved and where it should not.

Funny you should mention roads,schools and Law Enforcement... classic areas where I believe the government should be present and I happily pay tax for. But then I mentioned these examples before.

It's the meddling that goes beyond the core remit of government,and which left-wing governments love to indulge in the most,which I am against. What I eat,wether I smoke or not,drink,drugs,prostitution,red-tape in housing,business,Industry, etc.

Gender main-streaming,morality that the left loves to go on and on about,political correctness and the constant harping on about how the privileged should sacrifice whilst stuffing their own pockets.

Thank you,but I know what my freedom is and I value it and to me it isn't an empty sound-bite. If it is to you than I guess you must be happy being told what to do,think and feel? If so, good for you.

Originally Posted by Damien

Err no.[COLOR="Silver"]

Err,yes.Ever been to a Communist country and spoken to those who live in it? The teaching is universal,from what I have been told there,that socialism is the stepping stone to Communism. If you look into the ideology it's obvious,too.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Will21st

Err,yes.Ever been to a Communist country and spoken to those who live in it? The teaching is universal,from what I have been told there,that socialism is the stepping stone to Communism. If you look into the ideology it's obvious,too.

Probably for radical interpretations of it, but most people are giant hypocrites and just pick out the bits they like anyway.

Originally Posted by Will21st

Really? You mean going from a government that was urinating our futures up the wall and doling it out to all and sundry is no different from a government that is actually trying to get us out of the deep dung we're in? Hmm,we'll have to agree to disagree.

No. We're not talking about competence. We're talking about control. This Government wants a database of all your communications activity and wants secret courts. This despite their lack of 'socialism'.

Funny you should mention roads,schools and Law Enforcement... classic areas where I believe the government should be present and I happily pay tax for. But then I mentioned these examples before.

It's the meddling that goes beyond the core remit of government,and which left-wing governments love to indulge in the most,which I am against. What I eat,wether I smoke or not,drink,drugs,prostitution,red-tape in housing,business,Industry, etc.

Porn ban explored by this government, database by both governments, minimum price for drink by both governments. It's hard to see what is only left wing about this.

Also the remit of Government is what you can vote for and people with a different opinion on that from you are not commie-nazis angling for a oppressive genocide state.

Thank you,but I know what my freedom is and I value it and to me it isn't an empty sound-bite. If it is to you than I guess you must be happy being told what to do,think and feel. Good for you.

Again that isn't what I said. Nice strawman though. Are you just reading off Alex Jones' website?

Err,yes.Ever been to a Communist country and spoken to those who live in it? The teaching is universal,from what I have been told there,that socialism is the stepping stone to Communism. If you look into the ideology it's obvious,too.

Oh I didn't know you spoke to someone from a communist country. The only problem is I went to America where they're capitalist and someone there told me that capitalism is the first step to fascism and, if you look it up, it's obvious. Also this guy was an capitalist .

Originally Posted by danielf

There may be a historical context in which it is true, but that's not the context of the current debate, which appears to be that everyone whose political leanings are not to the right of the centre, is a socialist and therefore a communist in waiting who must therefore support an all-controlling state that is partial to genocide.

I would suggest that this position is a tad removed from reality.

I also agree.Socialism isn't communism anymore than every Tory is a right wing fascist toff determined to keep the serfs in place.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I also agree.Socialism isn't communism anymore than every Tory is a right wing fascist toff determined to keep the serfs in place.

No??!!!

There's a few round here who'd disagree with that.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I also agree. Socialism isn't communism anymore than every Tory is a right wing fascist toff determined to keep the serfs in place.

Now now, you have to remember that Fascism is left-wing. Daniel Hannan says so, and he trumps Wikipedia.

Originally Posted by danielf

Now now, you have to remember that Fascism is left-wing. Daniel Hannan says so, and he trumps Wikipedia.

Daniel Hannan? He was the guy who went on Glenn Beck during the Obamacare stuff to slag off the NHS.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Damien

Daniel Hannan? He was the guy who went on Glenn Beck during the Obamacare stuff to slag off the NHS.

Dunno. One of your fellow mods appears to think he's a credible source on this subject.

Originally Posted by danielf

Dunno. One of your compadres appears to think he's a credible source.

Oh that. Nah he's not here and he does backs up his arguments so let's not get into that.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Damien

Oh that. Nah he's not here and he does backs up his arguments so let's not get into that.

Yeah. Thing is though: this discussion is a carbon copy of the other one.

Originally Posted by danielf

Now now, you have to remember that Fascism is left-wing. Daniel Hannan says so, and he trumps Wikipedia.

Glad to see you've been paying attention ...