OFCOM speaks on Anti-piracy measures.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Lord Nikon

Reliable enough citations to back my claim?

Yes and no.

Primarily because your assertion "2) It has been PROVEN in the literary environment that downloading of content for free INCREASES legitimate sales. Even when those downloads are free from DRM and of exactly the same quality as the paid for version." directly contradicts your citation wherein you quote Flint himself as saying "Well, obviously I can't "prove" it, but it seems blindingly obvious to me that it was the fact that An Oblique Approach went into the Library in the fall of 2000 that explains most of that increase".

There is also the matter that piracy is not a factor in Flint's world as he, as an anti-copyright activist, together with all of the Baen authors have of their own volition given their permission for the free distribution of their works or parts thereof.

What is interesting from the Baen model though is the fact that figures after the roll out / launch of Bittorrent (the very month after the last figures provided by Flint) are very hard to find (if indeed any have been published at all).

That said, as I mentioned above piracy is not relevant to their particular business model therefore people legitimately downloading material as offered by the publisher are highly unlikely to fall within the remit of this legislation.

From that perspective I think it best that we try to stay on topic.

[Lord Nikon]

If you want more up to date figures, email Tony Weiskopf, the person in charge of baen. But consider this. These figures are from 2000 and 2002, if the DRM free ebook distribution didn't work, would they still be doing it 8 years later? would they still be publishing the CDs with DRM free ebooks?

LN, you may be missing the point.

Baen and their authors (some of them) allow their books to be distributed - it's their choice.

The problem with illegal downloading is that the authors/creators of that work are not involved in the decision-making process - that is the issue.

If authors or artists decide to make their work available, that should be their choice - not someone else's.

Well there are those of us who would rather own a hard paper copy of a book so downloading one is not something I would choose to do mainly for the fact I invariably take my books into the bathroom to read while I soak.Not going to do that with an electronic reader and I prefer the smell of an old book to one of heated plastic.

As to music well some classic albums of the past were about the artwork that accompanied the vinyl,tape,CD. Frankly the fun has gone out of collecting a music library because of the simpler cheaper graphics and most will download not caring about such things ..Maybe a legit copy of the music with some good artwork with a correct limited edition number might be one way to get people legally buying again.

However as I intend never to find myself in any court of law I dutifully buy all my music,software from reputed sites or shops thus making sure I won't face prosecution for copyright theft.I also do not share my music collection/software with anyone else online(and I learned a long time ago never to lend my hard copies of my music collection to ANYONE).

Yes I listen to music from certain sites before I decide whether to purchase but it's perfectly legal to listen provided I don't download it illegally.

Those who refuse to buy legally are thieves.They deny the artists their rightful earnings on the product and the less money arrives in the pockets of a struggling band preventing them from rightfully earning a wage for the job they do.Just because the end product is ephemeral and fleeting makes it no less theft even if the law doesn't view it as such.The fact that it is against a law still makes it an illegal act.

So only those who do actually break this law need worry..as long as you have the hard copies and receipts.

And all the above is just as applicable to films and photographs.

So I hope that the potential loss of privacy will be balanced by the prosecution levels of those caught committing this crime.

I buy my music. I buy my games and applications. I don't buy TV shows because of a number of reasons:

• Storage Space - While I can move content to an external HD the DRM makes this quite a hassle since I can't play it anywhere
• Cost - As a result of the above I often delete videos after I have watched them. I am not paying for something that I treat as disposible
• Not all shows are out here and the ones that are can often be subjects of delays from the States. As a fan of The Wire, I used to have to wait until the DVD release. Months after it finished broadcasting on HBO. Why wait that long?

Originally Posted by Damien

I buy my music. I buy my games and applications. I don't buy TV shows because of a number of reasons:

• Storage Space - While I can move content to an external HD the DRM makes this quite a hassle since I can't play it anywhere
• Cost - As a result of the above I often delete videos after I have watched them. I am not paying for something that I treat as disposible
• Not all shows are out here and the ones that are can often be subjects of delays from the States. As a fan of The Wire, I used to have to wait until the DVD release. Months after it finished broadcasting on HBO. Why wait that long?

I wait until a show is shown here legally.It's irritating yes but I'd rather be on the right side of the law.

Though I do understand the annoyance when certain channels arbitrarily stop showing a series midrun or won't air any following future series.Though invariably the series do get taken up by other channels.I was peeved mightily about House in that respect but thanks to Sky 1 and now Hallmark I can see him still.

[Blackened]

Originally Posted by Angua

The majority of people on low incomes either rent the DVD or borrow music from the library at a very reasonable price. If the cost is too high we do not buy - basic economics.

I don't want to argue, but 'majority' as in who? The majority of what - people you know or talk to, or ..?
I (genuinely, not being awkward) ask because virtually EVERYONE I come into contact with - be it friends, relatives, neighbours, parents and people who bring their PCs, laptops and iPhones/Touch etc to be fixed/cleaned up ALL either have kids who download from P2P or do it themselves. None of them care about CD covers, lyric sheets or credits and much less a physical copy. All they want is that top ten album on their iPod for school/gym/the car or whatever. A relative used to get all the CDs he wanted off the 3 quid each, 2 for a fiver bloke at work, but now it's all free!!! He just asks his son and he's got it the same day. No-one needs 50mb broadband or even 10mb broadband. 2mb will do for a 60mb album in MP3 format.
And while I'm reasonably sure some of us do still enjoy picking up a vinyl album or single, and wait for the release day to pop into a shop and buy the CD, I'm also reasonably sure most of us know that in AnAverage Town in JoePublic Land the majority of kids' MP3 players are full of Rihanna's songs pulled from Limewire.
I recently had an iPod Touch in for repair that needed a restore. I asked them why didn't they do it themselves with the software they use for it. They said what, Bit Torrent?

in short, it's rife and has been for as long as I can remember.
If this all stops the the average user downloading at home, the bloke at work with the A4 lists downloading via NNTP & SSL will be happy again - until everyone works out how to do it.

Originally Posted by Blackened

I don't want to argue, but 'majority' as in who? The majority of what - people you know or talk to, or ..?
I (genuinely, not being awkward) ask because virtually EVERYONE I come into contact with - be it friends, relatives, neighbours, parents and people who bring their PCs, laptops and iPhones/Touch etc to be fixed/cleaned up ALL either have kids who download from P2P or do it themselves. None of them care about CD covers, lyric sheets or credits and much less a physical copy. All they want is that top ten album on their iPod for school/gym/the car or whatever. A relative used to get all the CDs he wanted off the 3 quid each, 2 for a fiver bloke at work, but now it's all free!!! He just asks his son and he's got it the same day. No-one needs 50mb broadband or even 10mb broadband. 2mb will do for a 60mb album in MP3 format.
And while I'm reasonably sure some of us do still enjoy picking up a vinyl album or single, and wait for the release day to pop into a shop and buy the CD, I'm also reasonably sure most of us know that in AnAverage Town in JoePublic Land the majority of kids' MP3 players are full of Rihanna's songs pulled from Limewire.
I recently had an iPod Touch in for repair that needed a restore. I asked them why didn't they do it themselves with the software they use for it. They said what, Bit Torrent?

in short, it's rife and has been for as long as I can remember.
If this all stops the the average user downloading at home, the bloke at work with the A4 lists downloading via NNTP & SSL will be happy again - until everyone works out how to do it.

And they are all the reason why the music industry is in a mess...I'm looking forward to see all these avenues cut off one by one.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Blackened

I don't want to argue, but 'majority' as in who? The majority of what - people you know or talk to, or ..?
I (genuinely, not being awkward) ask because virtually EVERYONE I come into contact with - be it friends, relatives, neighbours, parents and people who bring their PCs, laptops and iPhones/Touch etc to be fixed/cleaned up ALL either have kids who download from P2P or do it themselves. None of them care about CD covers, lyric sheets or credits and much less a physical copy. All they want is that top ten album on their iPod for school/gym/the car or whatever. A relative used to get all the CDs he wanted off the 3 quid each, 2 for a fiver bloke at work, but now it's all free!!! He just asks his son and he's got it the same day. No-one needs 50mb broadband or even 10mb broadband. 2mb will do for a 60mb album in MP3 format.
And while I'm reasonably sure some of us do still enjoy picking up a vinyl album or single, and wait for the release day to pop into a shop and buy the CD, I'm also reasonably sure most of us know that in AnAverage Town in JoePublic Land the majority of kids' MP3 players are full of Rihanna's songs pulled from Limewire.
I recently had an iPod Touch in for repair that needed a restore. I asked them why didn't they do it themselves with the software they use for it. They said what, Bit Torrent?

in short, it's rife and has been for as long as I can remember.
If this all stops the the average user downloading at home, the bloke at work with the A4 lists downloading via NNTP & SSL will be happy again - until everyone works out how to do it.

Thing is if these people were not downloading stuff would they actually bother to go and buy at current retail prices. This is my main bone of contention that downloading causes the huge losses claimed. When the reality would be not so many extra sales.

Why has there been an upsurge in cinema numbers? Perhaps significantly reducing the downloading would also reduce cinema numbers as people would have to choose between the cinema or a DVD.

[Blackened]

That's as may be, Maggy. Truth be told, people don't see the taking of a few albums from the majors as a big deal. They just don't see the big picture.
Widespread education campaigns (instead of patronising knock off Nigel ads) look good on paper, but it's never going to work. You can't make people pay for something they know they can get for less, or free. It's a nice ideal, but never going to happen. Something must be done to attempt to stem it to appease those losing out however - so here it is.

[Lord Nikon]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well there are those of us who would rather own a hard paper copy of a book so downloading one is not something I would choose to do mainly for the fact I invariably take my books into the bathroom to read while I soak.Not going to do that with an electronic reader and I prefer the smell of an old book to one of heated plastic.

I agree with the sentiment there, a real book does feel better,

As to music well some classic albums of the past were about the artwork that accompanied the vinyl,tape,CD. Frankly the fun has gone out of collecting a music library because of the simpler cheaper graphics and most will download not caring about such things ..Maybe a legit copy of the music with some good artwork with a correct limited edition number might be one way to get people legally buying again.

I feel the publicity about the sony rootkits on their music CDs and the high cost of an album during it's distribution life is also a contributory factor. If the CDs were more affordable more people would buy them.

However as I intend never to find myself in any court of law I dutifully buy all my music,software from reputed sites or shops thus making sure I won't face prosecution for copyright theft.I also do not share my music collection/software with anyone else online(and I learned a long time ago never to lend my hard copies of my music collection to ANYONE).

Small point about that statement, and it's something that is definitely misrepresented online. you CAN NOT STEAL A COPYRIGHT, you can INFRINGE it, ie obtain or distribute without permission, but theft of a copyright is pretty much impossible. If you have copyright on a document and I photocopy it, I have infringed your copyright but I have not stolen it as you still retain your copy.

Yes I listen to music from certain sites before I decide whether to purchase but it's perfectly legal to listen provided I don't download it illegally.

Those who refuse to buy legally are thieves.They deny the artists their rightful earnings on the product and the less money arrives in the pockets of a struggling band preventing them from rightfully earning a wage for the job they do.Just because the end product is ephemeral and fleeting makes it no less theft even if the law doesn't view it as such.The fact that it is against a law still makes it an illegal act.

So only those who do actually break this law need worry..as long as you have the hard copies and receipts.

And all the above is just as applicable to films and photographs.

So I hope that the potential loss of privacy will be balanced by the prosecution levels of those caught committing this crime.

It is unenforceable. The more they try to legislate the more people will work out how to circumvent the checks. encryption, multipart multitiered encrypted rar files with padding files to hide MD5s, the encryption would stuff SPI, there are ways round every type of tracking. What the music and film industry needs to do is turn their thinking upside down. At this moment they are thinking 'what can we do to stop this' instead of 'what can we do to embrace this new chance at reaching a wider audience' and 'why do people copy our works, what can we do to encourage sales without making ourselves look like bad guys'

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Lord Nikon

It is unenforceable.....

It certainly isn't "unenforcable".

However, whilst it will not put an end to online theft in its entirety, many people will be made to account for their actions.

Just like giving books away for free increases awareness so will the prosecution of those who steal increase the awareness of others as to the penalties for doing so.

That is the reality of the situation.

[Lord Nikon]

For every method of tracking a countermeasure will be created, this has happened since the internet became available to the masses. It's an endless game of tag the industry has used to justify increasing prices. "We must increase price to combat losses due to piracy" "We have spend millions on DRM, we need to make it back"
DVDs were protected against copying by CSS - broken
DVD Region codes - broken
DVD RCE checking region more than once - broken
Blu ray protection - broken
Rootkit enabled CDs - broken
It's an endless game of tag used by the industry to try to retain the old methods of making money from movies. Baen looked at it from the perspective of "How do we use this to our advantage" with their epublishing business, and turned the standard market model on it's head. And made it a success.

Yes the baen model is about books and epublishing. That's because baen were the first to take the chance. To my knowledge no-one in the music or movie industry has attempted to take the same step with their industry. If they did I am sure the same surprises would be there.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Lord Nikon

For every method of tracking a countermeasure will be created, this has happened since the internet became available to the masses. It's an endless game of tag the industry has used to justify increasing prices. "We must increase price to combat losses due to piracy" "We have spend millions on DRM, we need to make it back"
DVDs were protected against copying by CSS - broken
DVD Region codes - broken
DVD RCE checking region more than once - broken
Blu ray protection - broken
Rootkit enabled CDs - broken
It's an endless game of tag used by the industry to try to retain the old methods of making money from movies. Baen looked at it from the perspective of "How do we use this to our advantage" with their epublishing business, and turned the standard market model on it's head. And made it a success.

Yes the baen model is about books and epublishing. That's because baen were the first to take the chance. To my knowledge no-one in the music or movie industry has attempted to take the same step with their industry. If they did I am sure the same surprises would be there.

I'm not disputing that it's a game of cat and mouse.

What I am saying in relation to this legislation is that it is enforcable, people will be prosecuted, public awareness of the illegality of their activities will be heightened and that, in itself, is a good thing.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I'm not disputing that it's a game of cat and mouse.

What I am saying in relation to this legislation is that it is enforcable, people will be prosecuted, public awareness of the illegality of their activities will be heightened and that, in itself, is a good thing.

My feelings are there is about to be an increase in the amount of companies offering Secure connections, Vpns and such.

for instance

http://blacklogic.com/