Please Help Me To Save Lives

Flyboy has stated that he no longer does commercial letting and as this is the case his lets are not subject to the same rules ,the only ones he will be subject to are the ones normal home owners have with a few possible exceptions .As far as furnishings go EVERY piece of furniture sold in this country meets fire regs (or should),just go into any furniture shop in the high street and you will see a little tag on the sofas and chairs ect that prove it .You also have to remember that a lot or private lets are unfurnished it is therefore the tenants responsibility for the furnishings

Having said that i do agree with your campaign but think you should re-think your tactics .I have extensive experience in refurbishment of comercial properties including council housing and know for a fact that a lot of what you are campaigning for is already being implemented and has been in place for some time .

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

That is good to here!


So have I seen some bad properties, and I have had a number of them instructed to upgrade there properties by the Fire Brigade.


A HMO and B&B is not a residential letting, it is a private letting technically.


So all your Furniture and Furnishings comply with the Furniture and Furnishings (Fire) (Safety) Regulations 1988

Plus see: Fire safety law and guidance documents for business

So wear have I got it wrong on what I said?

You are not really doing yourself any favours here. Most of your post makes little sense and you still have very little understanding of residential lettings regulations.

Residential lettings are carried out by commercial organisations, as well as private individuals. Bed and breakfasts fall under very different regulations to lettings. HMOs are residential lettings. Your link to "Fire safety law and guidance documents for business" is for non-domestic buildings (commercial properties, offices and factories etc.) and the furniture and furnishings regulations relate to furniture manufactured after nineteen eighty-eight; trust me there not many residential letting properties with furniture that old. As I have said, ALL my properties exceed current regulations as far as fire safety is concerned, if these regulations change, so will my properties. I do not scrimp or penny pinch when it comes to the safety of my tenants, as I have demonstrated here. You have no idea whatsoever what to takes to install an automatic fire suppression system and you really, really should have found out more about them and the regulations that cover them, before you embarked on this crusade.

One of the properties I own is a small block of six flats, which also includes a sprinkler system. I was quite pleased when I bought it and asked a number of specialist firms about how much it would cost to upgrade it to something more modern and more aesthetically pleasing. The figures I suggested were based on that estimated cost. I notice although you said my estimated quotation was, "a load of Rubbish," but failed to come up with a alternative cost. If you can get it from someone for considerably cheaper, please let me know, I would very interested in talking to them.

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

[Snip] you still have very little understanding of residential lettings regulations.

Ok then what is the link/url to residential lettings regulations?

Residential lettings are carried out by commercial organisations, as well as private individuals.

Yes some are done by the owner/landlord, and some are done by letting agents.

Bed and breakfasts fall under very different regulations to lettings.

B&B is under the same as HMO's

HMOs are residential lettings.

Yes and so is B&B's

Your link to "Fire safety law and guidance documents for business" is for non-domestic buildings (commercial properties, offices and factories etc.)

No, it is for HMO's as well plus B&B's see quote below.

The FSO applies to all non-domestic premises in England and Wales, including the common parts of blocks of flats and houses in multiple occupation (HMOs). The law applies to you if you are:

[My Bold] So it does applie to HMO's and B&B's as well, quote from top of page on Fire safety law and guidance documents for business.

and the furniture and furnishings regulations relate to furniture manufactured after nineteen eighty-eight; trust me there not many residential letting properties with furniture that old.

The old furniture 9 times out of 10 is from a okshon, but all furniture in a B&B & HMO most have the Fire Resistant lable on it, if the lable comes off the item must be replaced, that is the lawe now!

As I have said, ALL my properties exceed current regulations as far as fire safety is concerned,

I am sorrry but you are wrong see your quote below.

or that they don't bother to replace the batteries in the smoke alarms, they run the risk of losing their tenancy (rather a homeless tenant than a dead tenant).

[My Bold] You are breaking the law you most have a full Fire Alarm System plus Fire Extinguishers and Emergency Lighting in a HMO or a B&B

if these regulations change, so will my properties.

I have the sneaky feeling that you have the old landlord pack.

From landlord property standards pdf

Fire Safety:
Kitchen Doors - half hour fire check doors with a self-closing device must be fitted to all kitchens to prevent the spread of fire. Where the kitchen is part of the dining room a fire door must be fitted to the living room doorway to provide a protected means of escape for the bedrooms.

Means of Escape - No bedroom should lead directly off the kitchen or kitchen/diner. Open plan ground floors in houses must have a protected means of escape for bedrooms. Bedrooms must open onto a landing or hallway i.e. they cannot be accessed by going through another room. If the only exit from the property is directly through the kitchen an alternative means of escape must be provided. If the Unit is a flat or a maisonette in a block where a communal staircase services more than one property, the entrance door to the flat must be a half-hour fire resistant door and be self closing.

Smoke detectors - In a house with two floors two smoke detectors must be fitted, one to the ceiling in the hallway outside the kitchen and the second on the landing. Houses with more floors require a minimum of one smoke detector on each landing. Flats need one smoke detector in the hall or common area of each unit. Smoke detectors must be hard wired mains supplied with battery back up, linked together where there is more than one, A carbon monoxide tester should be provided.

Smoke detectors/heat detectors installed must be to the Council’s current standard “The Fire Angel� detectors. (The heat detectors are EI Electronics model E1 164, the smoke alarms are EI Electronics model EI 166).

[My Bold]

I do not scrimp or penny pinch when it comes to the safety of my tenants,

I would hope not!

You have no idea whatsoever what to takes to install an automatic fire suppression system and you really, really should have found out more about them and the regulations that cover them, before you embarked on this crusade.

Oh you are so wrong.

One of the properties I own is a small block of six flats, which also includes a sprinkler system. I was quite pleased when I bought it and asked a number of specialist firms about how much it would cost to upgrade it to something more modern and more aesthetically pleasing.

You can get the Fire Sprinkler heads replaced and keep the old System see Eclipse Fire Protection for help.

The figures I suggested were based on that estimated cost. I notice although you said my estimated quotation was, "a load of Rubbish," but failed to come up with a alternative cost.

As I said see Eclipse Fire Protection for a quote, or see the Fire Sprinkler Association for a quote.

If you can get it from someone for considerably cheaper, please let me know, I would very interested in talking to them.

Please see above.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

Ok then what is the link/url to residential lettings regulations?


Yes some are done by the owner/landlord, and some are done by letting agents.


B&B is under the same as HMO's


Yes and so is B&B's


No, it is for HMO's as well plus B&B's see quote below.


[My Bold] So it does applie to HMO's and B&B's as well, quote from top of page on Fire safety law and guidance documents for business.


The old furniture 9 times out of 10 is from a okshon, but all furniture in a B&B & HMO most have the Fire Resistant lable on it, if the lable comes off the item must be replaced, that is the lawe now!


I am sorrry but you are wrong see your quote below.


[My Bold] You are breaking the law you most have a full Fire Alarm System plus Fire Extinguishers and Emergency Lighting in a HMO or a B&B


I have the sneaky feeling that you have the old landlord pack.

From landlord property standards pdf
[FONT=ArialMT]

[My Bold]

I would hope not!


Oh you are so wrong.



You can get the Fire Sprinkler heads replaced and keep the old System see Eclipse Fire Protection for help.



As I said see Eclipse Fire Protection for a quote, or see the Fire Sprinkler Association for a quote.


Please see above.

Look, you are clearly not interested in a rational debate, as you still have not demonstrated any grasp of events on this thread.

I DO NOT OPERATE IN THE HMO SECTOR.

Is that clear enough for you now?

There has been no link for residential lettings regs, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Bed and breakfasts are not the same as a letting a house or flat.

Your nine times out of ten for furniture bought at auction is b*****s. However, furniture made before nineteen fifty is largely exempt from the regulations

The landlord pack you linked to is for HMOs, I DO NOT OPERATE IN THE HMO SECTOR.

Are you a rep for Eclipse these people, because you seem to be very keen on selling their services? You seem so keen on saving me money on a sprinkler system, how much would it cost then?

Just so you are clear:

I DO NOT OPERATE IN THE HMO SECTOR.

i take it your not in the HMO sector then Flyboy


i told him that

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by martyh

Flyboy has stated that he no longer does commercial letting and as this is the case his lets are not subject to the same rules ,

Sorry your wrong, for one he has a HMO plus he has flats as well.

the only ones he will be subject to are the ones normal home owners have with a few possible exceptions.

Sorry your wrong.

As far as furnishings go EVERY piece of furniture sold in this country meets fire regs (or should),

[My Bold] You hit the nail on the head

just go into any furniture shop in the high street and you will see a little tag on the sofas and chairs ect that prove it.

And if it does not walk a way, or if you are delivered furniture with out the lable send it back!

You also have to remember that a lot or private lets are unfurnished it is therefore the tenants responsibility for the furnishings

If it is unfurnished then yes it is up to the tenant to furnish there home, but the tenant must buy Fire Resistant furnishings with the lable on it!

and if the Fire Resistant lable is not on it, it must go!

Having said that i do agree with your campaign [Snip]

Thank you for your support

but think you should re-think your tactics.

Sorry I am not of the PC brigade, if I see something wrong then I will say so.

I have extensive experience in refurbishment of comercial properties including council housing and know for a fact that a lot of what you are campaigning for is already being implemented and has been in place for some time.

That is good to here, but I wish that all new builds would have Fire Sprinklers as standard, and all refits would have Fire Sprinklers as standard as well.

But I would like to see all flats, B&B's and HMO's to have Fire Sprinklers as standard.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by martyh

i take it your not in the HMO sector then Flyboy


i told him that

I stopped renting to students about fifteen years ago. It go too expensive and there wasn't much profit in it for me. I had four houses near a university and they abused my trust. I would generally leave them alone as long as they paid the rent and left the houses in the same condition as they found them. I did check on them from time-to-time and found out that they were sub-letting living rooms etc. Murals painted on walls (I wouldn't have minded so much if they were any good), furnishings and white goods abused and serious disrepair. All the properties had heating, plumbing and electrical cover and they didn't bother calling British Gas to have the drains fixed, which meant that they wouldn't come out because the problems had been left for so long. When they left I withheld their deposits. Two of the students' fathers threatens legal action until I showed them the before and after pictures and told them they were lucky I was not suing for more than just the deposits. The whole cost of making good on all four properties was over ten thousand pounds. It would have cost almost that to pursue them through the courts (the law is not weighted in favour of landlords). I sold the properties and made the money back.

the problem is you keep telling us information we already know
we already know to buy fire resistant furniture (not that you get much choice these days as its made fire restistant as standard)
smoke alarms are hard wired as standard in all comercial or BB's or HMO's whatever you want to call them including all council properties
egress windows are fitted as standard to all upper floors (it has been law for a number of years)
non key lock handles fitted to these windows as standard
as for sprinkler systems there can be major structural issues involved in the instalation it's not just a case of a few pipes and nozzles, water pressure has to taken into account to allow the nozzle to work effectively,the higher the building the more preasure, how to keep the pipes away from the heat to to make sure the water doesn't come out at near boiling point
this is easy in a new build but not so easy in refurbs
and if you say we are wrong i something please state HOW we are wrong because myself and Flyboy would be very interested in any changes to the regs

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Look, you are clearly not interested in a rational debate, as you still have not demonstrated any grasp of events on this thread.

Yes I am.

I DO NOT OPERATE IN THE HMO SECTOR.

Sorry but I got the impression that you where in the HMO sector.

Is that clear enough for you now?

Yes it is!

There has been no link for residential lettings regs, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Well I did ask you for one!

Bed and breakfasts are not the same as a letting a house or flat.

Sorry as far as I know thay are!

furniture made before nineteen fifty is largely exempt from the regulations

It is exempt.

The landlord pack you linked to is for HMOs, I DO NOT OPERATE IN THE HMO SECTOR.

Sorry but I got the impression that you where in the HMO sector.

Are you a rep for Eclipse these people, because you seem to be very keen on selling their services?

No I am not a rep for Eclipse.

You seem so keen on saving me money on a sprinkler system, how much would it cost then?

I was just trying to help!

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

Sorry your wrong, for one he has a HMO plus he has flats as well.

Don't you just love people who read the whole thread.

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I stopped renting to students about fifteen years ago. It go too expensive and there wasn't much profit in it for me. I had four houses near a university and they abused my trust. I would generally leave them alone as long as they paid the rent and left the houses in the same condition as they found them. I did check on them from time-to-time and found out that they were sub-letting living rooms etc. Murals painted on walls (I wouldn't have minded so much if they were any good), furnishings and white goods abused and serious disrepair. All the properties had heating, plumbing and electrical cover and they didn't bother calling British Gas to have the drains fixed, which meant that they wouldn't come out because the problems had been left for so long. When they left I withheld their deposits. Two of the students' fathers threatens legal action until I showed them the before and after pictures and told them they were lucky I was not suing for more than just the deposits. The whole cost of making good on all four properties was over ten thousand pounds. It would have cost almost that to pursue them through the courts (the law is not weighted in favour of landlords). I sold the properties and made the money back.

i know that situation only too well ,back in the late 80's early 90's i used to do full refurbs for a landlord who owned about 60 properties most of which were student lets for newcastle uni ,it was not unusual for me to do the same property at the end of the summer term having refurbed it the previous term and when the uni introduced the regs governing student lets it became cost prohibitive so he moved soley into private lets were the regs are much more relaxed

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I stopped renting to students about fifteen years ago. It go too expensive and there wasn't much profit in it for me. I had four houses near a university and they abused my trust. I would generally leave them alone as long as they paid the rent and left the houses in the same condition as they found them. I did check on them from time-to-time and found out that they were sub-letting living rooms etc. Murals painted on walls (I wouldn't have minded so much if they were any good), furnishings and white goods abused and serious disrepair. All the properties had heating, plumbing and electrical cover and they didn't bother calling British Gas to have the drains fixed, which meant that they wouldn't come out because the problems had been left for so long. When they left I withheld their deposits. Two of the students' fathers threatens legal action until I showed them the before and after pictures and told them they were lucky I was not suing for more than just the deposits. The whole cost of making good on all four properties was over ten thousand pounds. It would have cost almost that to pursue them through the courts (the law is not weighted in favour of landlords). I sold the properties and made the money back.

Wow I am sorry to here that.

[die5el]

Do these Epetitions really work so far i don't know one that has and there has been plenty over the years

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by martyh

the problem is you keep telling us information we already know

Ok you know it, but some landlords don't no it!

we already know to buy fire resistant furniture (not that you get much choice these days as its made fire restistant as standard)

Your not ment to have a choice.

smoke alarms are hard wired as standard in all comercial or BB's or HMO's whatever you want to call them including all council properties

If you meen hard wired to the mains is ok for council properties, but not for HMO's or B&B's it must be hard wired to a Fire Alarm System.

egress windows are fitted as standard to all upper floors (it has been law for a number of years) non key lock handles fitted to these windows as standard

It has been law since 1982 at least.

as for sprinkler systems there can be major structural issues involved in the instalation it's not just a case of a few pipes and nozzles, [Snip]

I know!

this is easy in a new build but not so easy in refurbs

True!

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Originally Posted by die5el

Do these Epetitions really work so far i don't know one that has and there has been plenty over the years

Yes some times if you can get the numbers.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by martyh

i know that situation only too well ,back in the late 80's early 90's i used to do full refurbs for a landlord who owned about 60 properties most of which were student lets for newcastle uni ,it was not unusual for me to do the same property at the end of the summer term having refurbed it the previous term and when the uni introduced the regs governing student lets it became cost prohibitive so he moved soley into private lets were the regs are much more relaxed

I have reduced my property holdings over the last five years, but have recently started to invest in the market again. Just bought two more in the last month, a one bedroonm house and a two bedroom flat. One I will develop and sell, the other I will refurbish and let.

Just remembered what one of those fathers said to me when I told him how much it was going to cost me to put right the damage his darling princess had caused. He said, "well, it's just a skim off he top of what you make, Your only in this for the profit." Well, derrh, of course I'm only in it for the profit, why else would I do it. But, like many, he had a poor grasp of what those profits were. When you think that the revenue earned from the property; about eight hundred a month (seven thousand two hundred in the year), take out interest, insurance, fees etc. the profit was about three or four thousand pounds, on that one property. Then take into account the dilapidation costs, I was looking at about a thousand pounds profit for the year. Wasn't going to be Donald Trump any time soon.

I do have some low cost accommodation and I also work with organisations such as NACRO and some social services departments, to provide some transitional accommodation to some very vulnerable people. Some are ex-offenders, just leaving prison and needing to re-enter society. Some are young people just coming out of care and needing somewhere secure and consistent to live, until they establish themselves. I don't get too directly involved with these tenants, but sometimes I have to and to be honest, most of them are the best tenants I have ever had. But conversely, some have been some of the worst I have ever had, but, thankfully, it doesn't happen very often.

These tenants are the only ones who have a direct line number to my maintenance supervisor and I have told him that these are the highest priority calls. They also have been told that my PA's number is always open to them and I am always, like I am with all my other tenants, open to their input, whether positive or negative (the negative ones don't happen very often, usually it is things that are beyond my control, but you can't please everyone all the time )