Disconnection for abuse

Originally Posted by Thunderballs

you are absolutely correct on most of what you say but Viorgin are my ISP not my or anyone elses moral guardian.

The point is they havent followed up on a complaint - they have simply prejudged me as the account holder for an extremely trivial matter involving my internet service.

If they are to be "congratulated" for loosing a valuable customer over the word "asshole" in an an email and you consider that a good use of thier time in this moral crusade you seem to want them to persue fine - you are entitled to your opinion.

You have breached your contract and the terms and conditions laid out in the links below.

Acceptable Use Policy

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ptableuse.html

Terms and Conditions - On Cable


http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

You signed a contract so therefore you accepted the above.

[Impz2002]

Originally Posted by Thunderballs

It a voicemail they use to fob off customers and hide behind when they have made aqusations against them and either have or are threatening to cut them off. I would imagine that voicemail is heaving with unhappy customers.

Your acting as if VM are some underhand organisation actively seeking to disconnect their customers. Look at it from their point of view. the circumstantial evidence is quite strong !

Impz

[psyfur]

Quality thread, I love the trolls in this Forum!

Oh yeah that was the other thread, that guy was saying he had 50Mb line... you cant make this stuff up, pure comedy

*Wonders about prank calling VM*

[jreynolds]

Okay, obviously as it's in the T&Cs that you are responsible for how your internet connection is used then there really isn't any escaping that - whether you're running an insecure wireless network or not. It's there in black and white.

However, a lot of people on this forum have stated how they feel it unfair that someone can have a lawsuit brought against them for downloading illegal material even when it's very possible it was the next door neighbour using your connection without your knowledge.

You can't just pick and choose when it's fair and when it's not that you are solely responsible for your connection. I'm don't mean to point any fingers here! It's just that the general feeling on the board seems to be you shouldn't be sued for illegal downloading when there is not definite proof you are the one who has done it. The same should apply for any emails sent surely?

[The Hitman]

No Comment

[chuzzlemonkey]

If i was using your computer and told you to **** off...wouldn't you kick me off the computer?

Same principle...

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Thunderballs

Their letters hold me specifically responsible for the email and requitre an admisson and apology for breaching contract becasue of the email.

And yet in your original post you said:

"due to the highly offensive message that was left by yourself on our voice mail "can you please tell [EDIT:Name Removed]to go F""K himself" following our communication with you, we now require a full apology and retraction from you.

You are held responsible as the account holder, something you seem to want to ignore given the times you've been reminded of that here.

All the assumptions I am making is based on your original post, but correct me if I am wrong.

As I see it you were warned for an offensive email, with a threat of further action if you continued. Whethr that was right or wrong can be debated till the cows come home, and frankly I couldn't care less.

Someone, not you apparently,called VM, pretended to be you, said they were so-and-so and that the edited person can go "f... himself". Now OK I may be assuming wrongly that they also gave some clue as to who's account this voice was connected too, but it seems too much of a coincidence?

Apparently, some days later you found your services suspended, and after a contracted "discussion" with that team in VM you opened a piece of junk mail from Virgin explaining why you had been suspended, I bet in part was for the offensive voicemail. I am not sure from your post if it was for further abuse, or this mysterious impersinator telling VM staff to go forth etc.

Are those the correct chain of events, or have I completely fudged your O/P?

[Andrewcrawford23]

Originally Posted by Toto

Oh for crying-out-loud Andrew!

The guy gets a warning email for an offence of Virgin's T&C's, and the VM team responsible get a voicemail from someone claiming to be the guy, and to the person sending him the warning he tells them EFF OFF!

How did they assume it was him, because he must have quoted some sort of reference to himself, possibly a reference number? I suspect the real issue here is that he, the O/P, is not giving us the whle picture and garneshing the truth to solicit some sort of sympathy....surely you can see that?

FIA only applies to government and public bodies, he'd have more luck with a DPA request....but I doubt it.

either i have misread his lastest reply that virgin where being threaten to him or i am being incredible dum

[Thunderballs]

Originally Posted by Toto

And yet in your original post you said:



You are held responsible as the account holder, something you seem to want to ignore given the times you've been reminded of that here.

All the assumptions I am making is based on your original post, but correct me if I am wrong.

As I see it you were warned for an offensive email, with a threat of further action if you continued. Whethr that was right or wrong can be debated till the cows come home, and frankly I couldn't care less.

Someone, not you apparently,called VM, pretended to be you, said they were so-and-so and that the edited person can go "f... himself". Now OK I may be assuming wrongly that they also gave some clue as to who's account this voice was connected too, but it seems too much of a coincidence?

Apparently, some days later you found your services suspended, and after a contracted "discussion" with that team in VM you opened a piece of junk mail from Virgin explaining why you had been suspended, I bet in part was for the offensive voicemail. I am not sure from your post if it was for further abuse, or this mysterious impersinator telling VM staff to go forth etc.

Are those the correct chain of events, or have I completely fudged your O/P?

Thats a fairly good summary except the quotes are from their letters to me.

I didnt leave a VM and they have specifically told me no name was left on the VM and they have refused/dont have the VM to play to me.

There is only one email in question here and on its own there is no way shape or form that it represents a genuine legal risk to Virgin no matter who sent it.

As it is not, as far as I can tell, addressed to an individual but a company email address and it does not include the name of an individual or a group of people - it is just a sentence - I dont see how any individual could say it was directed at them.

If it isnt addressed to and doesnt include the name of a person the only cause Virgin would have to have any interest in this is if an individual claimed it was addressed to them. in which case a quick read of it would show that it isnt addressed to anyone personally. If it isnt addressed to anyone personally then the only remotely possible legal angle would be that that organisation it was addressed to claimed it to be libelous/defamatory.

Since it effectively says "F off you Asshole" it isnt defamatory or libelous towards a comapny becasue it it isnt public and or "hurting" the company's reputation and ability to trade.


So on its own as a one off, it is really a non issue as far as the law is concerned and anyone proporting to be a professional in this area should know that.

In effect Virgin having "investigated" are either not aware of that becasue the person dealing wit hit is not suffiiciently knowledgeable of the law, or are aware of this and have deemed it appropriate to threaten me as the account holder becasue "sending offensive emails" is not allowed under the terms and conditions of your contract.

You cant "offend" a company becasue a company although a legal entity is not living so it is impossible to "offend" it. They should have said "emails containing offensive words to ..." which of course they wouldnt becasue there is no law I am aware of that specifically prevents emailing or sending "offensive" words it is only the effect of those words that the law is concerned with (AFAIK)

Since it isnt actually breaking any law (as above AFAIK) their interest in it can only be moralistic from the persepctive of - someone has deemed this offensive and reported it to us or its been picked up by us - and so we are going to enforce our T&Cs in a lazy way and go have a pop at our customers.

Whilst their original letter to me as the account holder does not say I personally sent the email, in subsequent letters they say

"If we receive any more offensive messages from you, or you abuse any other other parties via our services we will remove all services from you.

If you then switch services to another provider and continue to abuse that service we will arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected"

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

Originally Posted by Haggis23

If i was using your computer and told you to **** off...wouldn't you kick me off the computer?

Same principle...

I havent told anyone involved with this to F off.

Your point is however well made. It is precisely that apparant attitude of Virgin that is extremely annoying.

I am a customer not just "using their" service. I like every other of their customers is paying for a service not paying for a nanny or supposed to be "grateful" to Virgin becasue they have allowed me to pay for their services and they have made specific allegations against me.

Aside from some uneforceable terms in their contract and T&Cs for example the bits that say they can decide to terminate your services at any time and for any reason and they are not liable for any losses their customers might suffer as a result, they have no grounds for this.

Originally Posted by whydoIneedatech

You have breached your contract and the terms and conditions laid out in the links below.

Acceptable Use Policy

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ptableuse.html

Terms and Conditions - On Cable


http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

You signed a contract so therefore you accepted the above.

Have you clicked on the links above and read them, especially the Acceptable Use Policy, as you have signed your name in acceptance of this and it has legal standings in a court of law.

[Thunderballs]

Originally Posted by Impz2002

Your acting as if VM are some underhand organisation actively seeking to disconnect their customers. Look at it from their point of view. the circumstantial evidence is quite strong !

Impz

Your apparently acting as though they are infallable.

Your point is akin to someone saying "you wouldnt be in court charged with murder if you are not guilty of Murder becasue the police and the crown prosecution service are not in the business of trying to convict innocent people"

They are an ISP not the law. In so far as they need to protect themselves and their reputation if they are going to accuse thier customers of breaching their contracts they really need more than "circumstantial evidence" wouldnt you say ?

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Originally Posted by whydoIneedatech

Have you clicked on the links above and read them, especially the Acceptable Use Policy, as you have signed your name in acceptance of this and it has legal standings in a court of law.

Yes.

"legal standings" I assume you to mean having Legal Legitimacy"

Having legal legitimacy and being Lawful are too different things.

Take for example the 30 day notice you will be required to give them if you wish to terminate your services.

Note they have a clause that requires them also to give 30 days notice.

Now note the terms that say they can terminate your services immediately for any reason they deem fit

How would you resolve that ?

Originally Posted by Thunderballs

Your apparently acting as though they are infallable.

Your point is akin to someone saying "you wouldnt be in court charged with murder if you are not guilty of Murder becasue the police and the crown prosecution service are not in the business of trying to convict innocent people"

They are an ISP not the law. In so far as they need to protect themselves and their reputation if they are going to accuse thier customers of breaching their contracts they really need more than "circumstantial evidence" wouldnt you say ?

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------



Yes.

"legal standings" I assume you to mean having Legal Legitimacy"

Having legal legitimacy and being Lawful are too different things.

Take for example the 30 day notice you will be required to give them if you wish to terminate your services.

Note they have a clause that requires them also to give 30 days notice.

Now note the terms that say they can terminate your services immediately for any reason they deem fit

How would you resolve that ?

They have your signature and they have a powerful legal team behind them, that is how all these big companies deal with people.

They use their legal muscle to win.

[Thunderballs]

Originally Posted by whydoIneedatech

They have your signature and they have a powerful legal team behind them, that is how all these big companies deal with people.

They use their legal muscle to win.

And if you were the CEO of Virgin Media would you be wanting to get those expensive lawyers involved in a case involving the word "asshole" sent in an email to a company address.

They have already lost becasue I am no longer paying them the best part of 1500 quid a year and they have gained nothing in return.

Originally Posted by Thunderballs

And if you were the CEO of Virgin Media would you be wanting to get those expensive lawyers involved in a case involving the word "asshole" sent in an email to a company address.

They have already lost becasue I am no longer paying them the best part of 1500 quid a year and they have gained nothing in return.

Good for you, standing your ground.

No my intention was purely to point out the ways that the Acceptable Use Policy covered this problem.

[Thunderballs]

Dear MR A******e

I am receipt of your letter dated 6th August 2008 (significantly postmarked 7th August) 2008 and letters from ****** dated 24th July 2008 and 28th July 2008 respectively.

These letters variously accuse me of having breached the Terms and Conditions of my Contract with Virgin Media which I wholeheartedly dispute.

All my Virgin Media services were disconnected on the 7th of August some time in the late afternoon and following suspension of my Internet service early in the afternoon of 6th August.

Within your department I have specifically had conversations with ************** on 6th of August and I believe yourself on the 7th of August in relation to these matters.

I have not had it explained to me over the telephone, nor do the letters from your department make it clear, EXACTLY which clauses of the Terms and Conditions of my contract with Virgin Media I have been accused of breaching.

As I am sure you appreciate it is a comprehensive document and some clarification on the matter might have been helpful as specifics are far easier to address than generalities and Contract Law is often complex.

There are three specific issues here that your letters mention.

One relating to an isolated email and the reason for your departments letter of 24th July. One relating to a “highly offensive message” you say was left on your voice mail by me in your letter of the 28th July and one alleging abuses of other suppliers services also mentioned in your letter of 28th of July.

It is alleged that an email sent from my Internet connection addressed to **************** that to quote your letter of 24th July, “can be deemed offensive”.

The email is “sent from” my Internet connection and does not bear my name and was not sent by me or anyone that I know

The email has been addressed to ************** and does not refer to nor is it addressed to a specific person.

The person who sent the email has chosen not to address it to a person or persons
The email address it has been sent to does not specifically look like an individuals email address.

To whom could this be “deemed offensive” given that it is not addressed to a specific person nor does it mention the name of a specific person, and it is not possible to “offend” an inanimate object.

Why are Virgin Media holding me responsible for an email I haven’t personally sent to someone who’s chosen to open an email that is not addressed to a specific person and does not include the name of a specific person and then apparently chosen to deem the contents “offensive”?

If the email has alternatively intercepted by yourselves and “deemed offensive”, on what grounds do you do so and for what purpose? Any number of programs Virgin Media transmits and you solicit people to watch and listen to “could be deemed offensive”

Accusing me of breeching your Terms and Conditions on the basis of this isolated email is absurd.

It hasn’t been written by me or anyone I know
It is not addressed to a person
It doesn’t address a person
It doesn’t refer to an individual
You say it is an isolated email not one of many
It has been sent to one email address not many
It hasn’t been sent via Virgin Media’s email service
It isn’t libelous
You don’t say it contains copyrighted material, viruses or other malicious attachments
It isn’t obviously “Spam”
It clearly is not generic
It isn’t threatening future action
It isn’t coercing someone to commit crime
etc etc.


The second alleged breach of your Terms and Conditions is that I left an “offensive voicemail” as outlined in your letter of 28th July.

I did not find and open that letter until the evening of the 6th August after it came to light in a discussion with Mr. Bull****it. The letter was not referred to by staff within your Customer Service, Technical Support and other front line teams I had spoken to earlier on the 6th before speaking to Mr. Toss*******.

I have not left this message and in conversations with your department no one has been able or willing to play it to me.

I have been specifically told by Mr. W^^^^^^ and I believe yourself, it does not mention my name. Moreover your letter of 28th of July specifically quotes the message – and does not quote my name as being in the message.

To my knowledge I have had no dealings with your department prior to 6th July. I had a telephone conversation with Mr. A******e on 6th of August and I believe yourself on 7th August but I have never spoken to either of you before or left any messages for you before.

Your letters are quite specific. Your letter of 28th of July includes “due to the highly offensive message left by yourself on our voice mail” and your letter of 6th August (postmarked 7th of August) includes “..regarding an offensive voicemail you left..”

In light of your insistence on these matters, I have specifically requested that I wanted all my services as per my contract with you and not a pick and mix of landline telephony and cable TV with a suspended Internet connection.

My contract is for all of those services not some of them and I am not invoiced for them separately.

It appears your department is insisting I send a “letter of apology” , to complete a form you included in your letter of 6th August which requires an admission of contractual breaches by me “..I understand any further breaches of the terms and conditions….”

Moreover your letter of 28th of July outlines some specific consequences of not complying with your wishes and accuses me of currently abusing other provider’s services that I might switch to at a later date and some level of cross supplier compliance or obligation to do what your department wants.

“If you then switch services to another provider and continue to abuse that service we will also arrange for those services to be suspended &/or disconnected.


How that is possible I am somewhat confused about, but the threat is quite unjustifiable and intimidating to say the least.

I have suffered significant financial loss due to the time it has taken me to try and resolve this issue using the means afforded to me by your company,and the inability to work from home.

As it stands at the moment and despite your letter of the 6th of August and several lengthy conversations with Customer Services, Technical Support , Customer Retentions Credit Services, I have all of my services disconnected. Additionally, your letter of the 6th August says email would be closed in 6 weeks but it is also now inaccessible to me.

In conclusion, I reiterate I believe I have done no wrong and have not breached the terms of my contract.

Aside from the offer in the closing paragraph of your letter to me on the of 6th August

“If you have any questions, just leave us a voicemail message on 01633 710 142”

I have been given no other course of action to address this matter than to write.


Yours sincerely,


Mr G F&&& yourself