Israel's losing the plot

[Xaccers]

Now hang on a minute Gogogo!
No one has said that palestinian terrorists should be allowed to continue their attacks and killings.
However, I'm probably not the only one reading this who feels that you are saying Israel should be allowed to continue it's "terrorist"/military actions against the palestinian civilian population.
I make the distinction between palestinian civilians and terrorists.
Of course Israel should deal with the terrorists, but not at the expence of innocent people.

And if innocent civilians are injured/killed then the least Israel could do is appologise and hold an inquiry into what went wrong.
Bringing any charges against any Israeli forces if warrented

[TigaSefi]

Erm read UN reports ? Everyone knows UN are against Israel at every possible turn. Why ? Cos certain arabs states sit on tables that Israel gets no chance of being on since the arabs votes against them to be on it such as Security Council so yes most reports against Israel are biased.

[Xaccers]

Interesting, as there are only 2 muslim countries on the security council at the moment, Pakistan and Syria

http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_members.html

Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors. But frankly, when palestinian terrorists hide amongst civilian population what can Israel do? The Palestinian Authority must act but doesn't. Israel must respond hunt down the palestinian terrorists and deal with them.

And whilst you are fond of quoting UN rhetoric how about this:

"Palestinian terrorist groups have been increasingly using children as human shields, gunmen, and suicide bombers. This claim, which has long been maintained by Israel, was finally recognised by the United Nations.


At a UN Security Council debate on January 14 2003, which focused on measures to protect children in armed conflict, Olara Otunnu, Under-Secretary-General and Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Children and Armed Conflict, condemned Palestinian suicide bombings as destructive to both Israeli and Palestinian children and called on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in the conflict.[1] †œThe use of suicide bombing is entirely unacceptable. Nothing can justify this,ââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� said Otunnu at the opening of Tuesday's day-long session. †œWe have witnessed both ends of these acts: children have been used as suicide bombers and children have been killed by suicide bombings. I call on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in this conflict,ââ‚ ¬ÂÂÂÂ� he said[2].

While Israeli children are enrolled in an educational system based on values such as: peace, democracy, tolerance and the value of life, Palestinian children are raised on the basis of hatred, a desire to kill Jews and non-recognition of the State of Israelââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s right to exist. The Palestinian Authority is not taking serious measures to combat this phenomenon, and continues to turn a blind eye to the Palestinian boys and girls victimised as †œself sacrificeââ‚ ¬ÂÂÂÂ� on behalf of the entire Palestinian society.

It is disturbing and sad to see that in the year 2003 there are children in the Palestinian Authority who are raised and educated to hate and are manipulated by terrorist organisations for lethal violence. If there is to be any chance of real reform in the Palestinian Authority and of a future in which Palestinian and Israeli children share their lives together in peace, the Palestinian leadership must put an end to the cynical use it makes of children. "

1. UN press release SC/7631
2. Jerusalem Post January 15 2003

Xaccers there are 10 elected by the General Assembly for two-year terms, these are non-permanent usually nominated or recommened by regional states and not on the basis that they may have significant muslim populations.

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
<snip>

Despite Palestinian claims of a temporary ceasefire, the past week has witnessed two suicide bombings with many more warnings of terror attacks received by Israeli intelligence.

ummm, i think you'll find that those suicide bombings happened after the IDF assassinated one of the jihad members (incidentally, they killed him by firing anti tank weapons into a residential building....) i dont condone the palestinian bombings, far from it - but to say its them that are wrecking the ceasefire is simply not true......

Israel is committed to peace and continues to carry out confidence-building measures towards the Palestinian people.

Hahahahaha.......meanwhile, back on planet earth

how is building a 'security fence' to cage the palestinian people like cattle, keeping them in their cities under curfew, operating a 'shoot first, ask later' policy whilst applying that curfew, and now forbidding marriages with israelies etc etc 'carrying out confidence-building measures towards the palestinian people'???

Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to dismantle the terrorist
infrastructure which remains the main obstacle to peace.

with that i agree with you, the Authority should do more, but look at it from the palestinian PEOPLES point of view - they are getting shot, bulldozed and discriminated againsed every day by the israelies. who are they going to support more, the Authority, who want to sort things out by sitting round a table, or the militants, who activley fight back??

and do me a favour - leave sharon out of this....that man is wanted for war crimes againsed the palestinian people, so hes hardly the best person to be promoting peace with them....

(oh, and to be fair...nor is arafat - another loon from a bygone era)

The point still remains, if Israel did not have the protection of the US then the UN and NATO would now be doing to Israel what Israel has done to Lebanon and Palestine. Except for the NATO and UN forces would not be executing civilians.

Gogo I am absolutely astounded that you have the arrogance to dismiss what someone (markW) has seen with his own eyes.
I suppose the fact he was born and brought up with the crimes the Israeli state committed in Lebanon (which is acknowledged worldwide) doesnt count because he isnt Israeli therefor must be a lebanese Terrorist?

Its my oppinion that after claiming to be the most hated race on earth the Jews in Israel are doing a very good job of making sure this statement is true.

What interests me now is how the Israelis would react if the US suddenly decided it had to target the terrorism in Israel. I have a feeling that all hell would break loose and the situation would need NATO troops to stop the palestinians and every other neighbouring country from exacting their revenge.
Maybe the whole situation needs stronger demands, tell the palenstinians any more attacks on Israel Nato will accupy their land for a while. The issue the same threat to Israel. Its my beleif that Israel would be occupied first.

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
[B]Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors.

interesting that those 'investigations' have NEVER found an israeli soldier guilty of causing wrongful death....all the more interesting as when there is video footage, or other cast iron proof of wrong doing of israeli soldiers shooting innocent palastinians - and journalists and peace activists - that evidence is deemed 'inadmissable', and thet soldier(s) walk free....

what this means in effect is that the israeli soldiers are above the law. They know, and the palestinian people know, that they can do what they like without punishment, now imagine the fear that breeds amongs the people that those soldiers are forcebly guarding...- how is that different form the terrorists?

Just bookmarking so to speak.

Will go back to lurking.

Incog.

Mark W. Prime Minister Sharon is doing his best to get the peace process underway, he is acting sincerely to put peace at the top of the agenda.

Two years have past since the Palestinian violence erupted in September 2000, some eight weeks after yasser arafat rejected the generous offers made by former Israeli PM Ehud Barak at the Camp David Summit, and chose violence over peace. In the past two years, the terror against Israelis has been of a kind and severity unknown in Israel. Palestinian terrorists have carried out over 6,600 terror attacks since September 2000, killing more than 620 Israeli children, women and men (80% of whom have been non-combatants and wounding over 4,500. The equivalent number in UK terms would be over 6,200 dead and 45,000 injured. There has been a clear effort by Palestinian terrorists to target unarmed, innocent civilians on the streets, on buses, in homes, at pizzerias and cafÃÃâ€*’©s, at a university campus and a Passover Seder. The impact of the terror on Israeli lives is unimaginable.

You can rolleyes as much as you wish, we here are concerned about peace now. What are you are prepared to do to achieve peace now that is the issue that matters to people in the region.

Now, it's time to go to work.

[Mark W]

Originally posted by Gogogo
In the past two years, the terror against Israelis has been of a kind and severity unknown in Israel. Palestinian terrorists have carried out over 6,600 terror attacks since September 2000, killing more than 620 Israeli children, women and men (80% of whom have been non-combatants and wounding over 4,500. The equivalent number in UK terms would be over 6,200 dead and 45,000 injured. There has been a clear effort by Palestinian terrorists to target unarmed, innocent civilians on the streets, on buses, in homes, at pizzerias and cafÃÃâ€*’©s, at a university campus and a Passover Seder. The impact of the terror on Israeli lives is unimaginable.

bah humbug...read my earlier posts :-

since the second uprising there have been between 2,386 and 2,532 palestinian deaths (and that does NOT include those killed whilst engaged in military action againsed israelies , and between 23,094 and 41,000 + injuries

as opposed to 742 to 806 israeli deaths, and 5,586 injuries

you'll notice ive been more generous than you about the israeli figures, but that still leaves over 3 times as many innocent palastinian deaths at the hands of the IDF, with their terror tactics, bulldozing residential properties, and forcefull suppression....

*edit*
civilian deaths are bad, whatever side they are on. israelies die by terrorist action. 3 times as many palastinians die due to state sponsored action......you tell me which one is worse?

*edit 2*
or to put it another way.
800 odd Israeli civilians die from suicide bombings - something they cant guard or fight againsed. thats 'terrorism'

2000 palastinians civilians die from tanks, helicopter gunships and fighter jets - something they cant guard or fight againsed. but thats called (in your words gogo) 'whatever measures are needed'

care to explain what the difference is?

[TigaSefi]

And we go round in circles again which is precisely the problem. Everyone bandies figures and past events and no one drops it so we go in circles. For me it is very difficult to see an end to this in the next 5-10 years. Everyone says the next generation will put an end to it cos tomorrow's children will want peace etc. which is true to an extent. On the Israeli sides. From what I know of the school curriculum in Israel, it is taught about being fair and peace. And you do a survey of young ppl in Israel today, most will be saying end to fighting. Barak and Rabin before him understood this and offered Arafat 95% of what they wanted and yet they rejected the chance of getting out of this vicious circle.

Palestinians kids are instead taught mantra about destroying Israel and its people, sent to camps at the ages of 10 and upwards and taught how to clean and fire guns and how to "fight" in the war against Israel and told that Suicide bombing is the ultimate in martyrdom. They ain't in the front line on the gaza strip and west bank just to kick a football. It Provocation of the highest degree.

If Mark W was thrown stones all day long and not fight back then I have the utmost respect for him. I'd get ****ed off and would do something about it. Normally I'd give a kid a clip around the ear but walking to them means running the gauntlet of snipers from palestinians.

So what the solution ?

The solution is not to band all palestinians together. Yes there are extremists, just as theres extremist israeli's.

The main gripe poeple have atm is the actions of the israeli government.

Originally posted by Mark W
bah humbug...read my earlier posts :-

Mark W. Every post I've made has mentioned peace, not once have you shown any genuine concern for peace in the region.

One can only assume that you want war to continue. But this is not what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.

I ask once more what will YOU do to encourage PEACE in the region?
This is the issue that matters.

Originally posted by Gogogo
But this is uenot what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.

You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?