Expand the cable network

[Mr_Burns]

The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.

[ian@huth]

Where I have seen streets being cabled they have always dug the pavement and road up where the cables are to go. Do they not use other methods of getting the cable in the ground similar to what British Gas used to get a gas supply into a house I used to own. To get the supply to me they had to cross two roads and then my garden. They did this by digging four holes and used a mole (I think that is what they called it) to bore between the holes and drag the pipe through.

I remember seeing a TV program that showed how they laid services in a huge development somewhere abroad (States I think). They used specially designed kerb edge stones which carried the services within them with access points outside each property. These kerb edges had holes every few inches which took surface water off the road.

Isn't there some method of extending the cabled areas more cheaply or is it a question of if you got it you're lucky, if you haven't you never will.

[Mr_Burns]

Normally the excavation is 'traditional' i.e. dig a trench and chuck the ducts in and back-fill it. If it's an extremely busy road which can't be closed or have lane restrictions imposed on it then I have known situations where thrust-boring has been used. To be honest I really don't know how the cost compares, though.

If ntl want to increase their customer base, at some point the networks will have to be extended as they will reach saturation point sometime, but what sort of timescale is involved is anyone's guess. Perhaps they're going to wait to see what new technologies develop which could make the provision of service a lot cheaper.

[andrew_wallasey]

Surely using a mole machine would be cheaper and quicker because there is less trenching and back filling. You would only have to dig holes at set intervals and on bends in the road where f/w would be needed anyway. Its only really modern developments (last 15-20 years) where the roads are all bendy.

I have seen the one which the gas board use because when I was an electrician. We found a gas leak and we got them out and it was interesting because the house had solid floors downstairs and they managed to negotiate it round everything and come up in exactly the right place in the house.

[Mr_Burns]

If it was cheaper then I would imagine that they would make use of it - it's incredibly expensive to dig the road up.

[andrew_wallasey]

So was the original rollout of cable supported by government funding?

[altis]

Originally Posted by Mr_Burns

If it was cheaper then I would imagine that they would make use of it - it's incredibly expensive to dig the road up.

It's a big business called 'no-dig'...

http://www.nodig2004.de/index.php?language=en
http://www.no-dig.com/
http://www.nodigengineering.com/
http://www.nodiginternational.com/

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Mr_Burns

The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.

This was the clause that rather crippled the financial viability of cable in the UK, slowed the speed of cable roll out and increased the cost, probably on both by a factor of 10.

I agree it makes the skyline a nicer place, and now most of the pavements have been repaired and trees that were killed reinstated.

Perhaps they will be able to lease duct space to BT in the future as they start their VOIP network upgrade and get rid of the poles from the streets.

The overhead power and cable and telco in the US does make it look very untidy, and makes power distribution less stable, the high winds of the last few years have regularly knocked whole areas of the countrys power out for days.

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

So was the original rollout of cable supported by government funding?

I don't know but this article indicates that it is in other countries and that the government is unwilling to consider it going forward, I suppose rightly so as the costs would benefit a plc (as well as broadband Britain). A third way would need to be found.

http://www.broadbanduk.org/reports/r..._appendix7.pdf

[andrew_wallasey]

Originally Posted by altis

It's a big business called 'no-dig'...

http://www.nodig2004.de/index.php?language=en
http://www.no-dig.com/
http://www.nodigengineering.com/
http://www.nodiginternational.com/

Is it cheaper than the tradition trench, duct, re-fill and re-tarmac?

[andrew_wallasey]

I just think it is absolutely stupid the way none of the housing developers work with NTL when they are building houses in cabled areas because there has been some new developments round here and none of them are cable enabled. One of them being in a town center.

Family who used to have NTL and were happy with them have moved into there areas and be unable to get NTL's services.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Mr_Burns

The network has to be underground - it's in the licence granted by the Government to ntl, etc. Even BT's new network has to be underground (I think). If they could have done it overhead, they would have - it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper but it would have made the sky line look very untidy!.

The old Reddifusion network in Wales is now redundant, but the majority of Poles and cabling still remains.

Do you realise that all the remaining poles and cables dont really exist, its a figment of your imagination!

A contractor was paid to remove all the cables and poles when ntl shut the systems down, I was involved with a small consortium trying to buy the systems from ntl at the time of closure. I obtained figures per pole and had the entire costs for shutting down the systems, this was apparently paid in full but much of the work was never completed.

There has been much talk of backhanders surrounding the closure of these networks, and the two main managers/directors involved in this deal are no longer employed by ntl

Shutting the existing VHF overhead systems in the South Wales valleys were a big mistake, the company had wayleaves and the valley towns with terraced houses and they were very cost effective to upgrade compared to large cities. The big problem was ntl's lack of understanding or possibly not wanting to understand the existing architecture in those areas, instead of using their heads and employing some technical skills to find solutions it was far easier to throw larg amounts of money at the cities. Many people with lots of years service in the cable TV industry will tell you the valleys are where the money is being made. For example the Ebbw Vale cable system had in excess of 60% penetration when it was closed down, and a few other systems had similar figures. (Remember impressive considering the manager in charge had been running them down for a number of years because he wanted redundancy for himself and sod the other 37 employees affected)

ntl played about with WHAM in Wales and later in Dolphin Square/London, as I predicted it would never go anywhere. Lack of money played a part but the main problem with ntl has always been lack of vision to look at different technologies, we used to have big problems where ntl would only stick to the original network design that was defined back in 1994. The architecture people in Hook never mooved with the times and that has cost ntl a lot of money and lost customers as a result.

Off my soapbox now

[Stu038]

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

Surely using a mole machine would be cheaper and quicker because there is less trenching and back filling. You would only have to dig holes at set intervals and on bends in the road where f/w would be needed anyway. Its only really modern developments (last 15-20 years) where the roads are all bendy.

Another problem is that there are lots of areas where no one knows exactly where services such as gas, electric etc. are underground. Street lighting, traffic lights and road signs espeacially seem to have some dodgy cable routing. I seem to remember lots of time in the past when such services were damaged while digging trenches.

A bit of a nightmare if you were doing wholeale moleing I would have thought. It would get very expensive not to mention risky if you were to nick a gas or electricity mains.

For some reason, the thread title 'Expand the cable network' reminds me of a film title: 'Raise the Titanic'. I would say that one is about as likely as the other.

[poolking]

Originally Posted by towny

For some reason, the thread title 'Expand the cable network' reminds me of a film title: 'Raise the Titanic'. I would say that one is about as likely as the other.

Don't you mean solving the mystery of the "Mary Celeste?"

[Mr_Burns]

Originally Posted by Escapee

Do you realise that all the remaining poles and cables dont really exist, its a figment of your imagination!

I know, we haven't had any calls from residents/local authorities complaining about hanging cables, etc.

I didn't realise how far the Metro network went, until we discovered a box hidden under a desk when packing up for the 'move'. I agree that it was a mistake that the network was closed down considering the number of homes it passed. But wasn't the argument that it wasn't making any money?

Originally Posted by Escapee

we used to have big problems where ntl would only stick to the original network design that was defined back in 1994

The original CableTel architecture is basically the current RF spec with a few very minor changes.

Originally Posted by andrew_wallasey

I just think it is absolutely stupid the way none of the housing developers work with NTL when they are building houses in cabled areas because there has been some new developments round here and none of them are cable enabled. One of them being in a town center.

There are new developments being made 'cable ready' (In the old 'Celtic' Region anyway can't say for the rest of the country), but ntl will never get into all sites even if they're on build.