NTL worse than BT

[ackees]

Are NTL networks available to 3rd parties?
Can another company offer broadband over the NTL cable?
Can someone confirm this?
Can a company †˜hot new servicesââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ contact NTL and say:
We want to offer broadband at half the price you sell it using your network?

At one time BT would argue that their services were open to competition, but as we know they controlled the licensing prices so much that it was not practical for anyone to compete, the government had to step in and make them lower prices to competitors.

You see the most important thing is the control of reasonable base prices, sure you can have the grease lightening top tier service that cost a lot but if the basic service starts costing a lot then not only does it lock out poorer customers (who then cannot have a service) but it forces all the other prices up.
So if dial in goes up to £17.50
Basic broadband will go up to £30 and so on.
Unreasonable price inflation.

Look at it like this:
Will NTL be increasing wages by 25%?
Will there be an increase of speed by 25% taking 56kps to 70kbs?
Will there be an extension of online time before disconnect from 2 hours up to 2.5 hours?
Has inflation increased by 25% in the last year?

Yes you can have companies say:
†œCome over to us and we will give you free internet accessââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�
and then increase their prices dramatically while saying:
†œItÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Å ¾Ã‚¢s only reasonable that we increase our prices to match our competitorsâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�
If you join a service you need some security that the company will not then increase prices unreasonably once you are on board, to do so at unreasonable rates is disreputable.
What would happen in a few years if the services we depend on were allowed to increase prices year on year at 25% (last year NTL increased the price by 100%).
Market conditions cannot control such abuse because all the companies will raise prices give or take a few pence between them to offer the sham of competition, consumers need protection.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by ackees

Are NTL networks available to 3rd parties?
Can another company offer broadband over the NTL cable?
Can someone confirm this?

Yes. AOL already do this. If you are talking about "Local Loop Unbundling" though, NTL don't seem to offer this, and TBH, BT are not exactly being co-operative with offering it either.

<snip>
You see the most important thing is the control of reasonable base prices, sure you can have the grease lightening top tier service that cost a lot but if the basic service starts costing a lot then not only does it lock out poorer customers (who then cannot have a service) but it forces all the other prices up.
So if dial in goes up to £17.50
Basic broadband will go up to £30 and so on.
Unreasonable price inflation.

NTL will lose customers to other ISPs. It would not be in their interest to do this.

Look at it like this:
Will NTL be increasing wages by 25%?

I doubt it

Will there be an increase of speed by 25% taking 56kps to 70kbs?

Impractical. Users would need new modems.

Yes you can have companies say:
†œCome over to us and we will give you free internet accessââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�
and then increase their prices dramatically while saying:
†œItÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Å ¾Ã‚¢s only reasonable that we increase our prices to match our competitorsâââ€Å ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�
If you join a service you need some security that the company will not then increase prices unreasonably once you are on board, to do so at unreasonable rates is disreputable.
What would happen in a few years if the services we depend on were allowed to increase prices year on year at 25% (last year NTL increased the price by 100%).
Market conditions cannot control such abuse because all the companies will raise prices give or take a few pence between them to offer the sham of competition, consumers need protection.

I do agree with you that in a lot of areas, customers need protection. But, the market will NOT keep absorbing those kinds of price rises. Look at the mobile phone market. That's still expensive, but it's actually quite reasonable compared to prices in the late 80s early 90s. The government have intervened in that market, but I think the major change in mobile phones occured when Mercury Communications leapt into the market with One2One.

[Derek]

OK so Ntl are increasing the speed of the 150k service to 300k. The price is staying the same.

Using your logic should Ntl double the price of the 150k service to keep the dialup competitively priced?

At the end of the day Ntl are a business not a charity. You cannot expect them to keep their prices static if every competitor is increasing their prices.

[ackees]

No one ever said that prices should never increase, only that they should increase at reasonable rates.
The broadband speed up from 150 to 300 is a good point.
We are talking about value here, is the value of the increase worth double the priece?
What is the added value of the 25% dial up increase?
In the end as mentioned above we are really talking about a range of services, yes some customers would be happy to pay double for double speed, and thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s OK, but for those who want a service and do not need double speed should they be forced to accept a doubling of charges or should they be accommodated?

Thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s why Ntl needs opening up so that people are not forced into paying exorbitantly all the time. Imagine everything going up 25% (because of some arbitrarily perceived added value by the company) but your wages remaining fixed to 2%.
The free market does not control itself as we are often led to believe, if companies are allowed complete free range they abuse customers. Ntl is abusing itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s existing customer base (not an exaggeration, I recently enquired about an attractive new offer and was told it is only available to new customers).

We need guidelines about Ntl price increases because they are going rampant and unreasonable (apart from the fictitious †˜marketÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¢ÃƒÆ ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€Å ¾Ã‚¢ what is to stop Ntl from doubling prices next year? I think BT prices may be capped but what about Ntl?).

Originally Posted by ackees

We need guidelines about Ntl price increases because they are going rampant and unreasonable (apart from the fictitious ‘market’ what is to stop Ntl from doubling prices next year? I think BT prices may be capped but what about Ntl?).

Why should ntl be stopped from doubling their prices if they want to be that stupid and suicidal ? - every business charges what they think people will pay, and will also make them a profit.

If ntl did double their prices then their customers would leave and they would go out of business - so it's not really likely to happen is it.

[ian@huth]

What you have to remember is that there are several reasons for price increases.

A company may decide to offer a service at no cost to the customer, something that NTL did with its dial-up internet access. Naturally if you are offering something for free there comes a time when you have to start charging for it, after all it costs the company something to provide it and in the long term the company has to make a profit. Do you move from a free service to a paid for service at the going rate that others charge? Not really, you work towards it over a period of time. That means annual price rises above the rate of inflation.

Ackees is looking at the dial-up price increase as being a rip off, but in reality NTLs dial-up customers have been getting a bargain for years and are now still enjoying the service at below average price.

[Stuart]

ackees, could you explain why you cannot use BT services? Is it actually a case of can not, or will not?

As Pem says, NTL are free to to raise their prices as they see fit (AFAIK so are BT now), but it would be commercial suicide for them to do so. Nearly all (if not all) people that can get NTL can also get BT/Sky (if they want the DTV & Phone). As for saying they are cheaper than BT, they probably are compared to the Standard BT tariff (a trick which nearly all other phone companies pull).

Regarding what you say about offers for new customers, this is also standard practice amongst other companies (especially Mobile phone companies). Also, they are not the only ISP to introduce a free service then suddenly replace it with a paid service. Freeserve, or Wanadoo as they are now have done it (they could hardly call themselves Freeserve if they weren't free).

As for the 4.99 ISPs you have mentioned, I think you'll probably find the price goes up after a couple of months, as these are probably special offers.

[ackees]

Yes we are getting closer to an understanding, all the companies play these games with prices, BT is not better than NTL and NTL is not better than BT (though BT does have more competition on its network), switching from one to the other and back is foolish because you will encounter similar problem, the idea of an the all powerful market that reigns back companies from over charging is a mirage. The only thing these companies really understand is tough regulations, it is beginning to look like some regulations in regards to pricing is needed to control excessive price hikes at NTL.

All this reminds me of the loan shark,
The man borrows £100 to pay the gas bill (or broadband bill) and the loan sharks says £20 a week only 10% interest, and the man thinks no problem I can cope with that, then the following month he tells the man prices have changed, the poor man ends up paying 1000% interest, whenever the loan shark wants to make a bit extra he up the interest. This is what Ntl have been doing, raising prices at inflated %â₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢s as they feel like it, and it needs to stop.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by ackees

All this reminds me of the loan shark,
The man borrows £100 to pay the gas bill (or broadband bill) and the loan sharks says £20 a week only 10% interest, and the man thinks no problem I can cope with that, then the following month he tells the man prices have changed, the poor man ends up paying 1000% interest, whenever the loan shark wants to make a bit extra he up the interest. This is what Ntl have been doing, raising prices at inflated %â₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢s as they feel like it, and it needs to stop.

What? So if the loan shark raises prices are you allowed to cancel the debt and walk away, somehow I don't think so. If Ntl raises the prices we give plenty of notice and allow the cancellation of contracts if the prices rise.

You have said several times that Ntl should allow competition. They do. It's called BT. Almost all Ntl customers can get BT and pay their prices if they choose to do so.

[Shaun]

Jsut been looking here: www.moneysavingexpert.com

This is intresting:

Cost of a 10 min daytime call to a T-mobile phone

NTL
£2.50

BT Standard Rate
£1.90

Telecom Plus
£1.85

BT Together
£1.80

Tele2
£1.70

Talk Talk
£1.65

Just Dial Saver
£1.65

18866/Telestunt/1899
£1.00

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by scastle

ackees, could you explain why you cannot use BT services? Is it actually a case of can not, or will not?

he can but he wont because he has setup email accounts etc which he can not port. he also said he cant port his phone number which is untrue.

ackees - even if the NTL phone network was unbundled you'd still have the the same problems transferring your email accounts etc as you would if you changed to BT.

by your own admission NTL are worse than BT - so why arent you with BT?

Originally Posted by ackees

...NTL also inherited a few things and one of them is the streets and houses we live in, the potential customers they inherited are important, else you would have companies like ntl laying cables in the deserts where for a fraction of the tax they can lay as many cables as they like.....

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by etccarmageddon

he can but he wont because he has setup email accounts etc which he can not port. he also said he cant port his phone number which is untrue.

He may not need to port his number, I've just ben looking at my call provider, and according to the new compay (www.1899.com) their service is avalable to most UK landline owners, you just dial a freephone number before you dial the number you want to call.

And at .5p per min to landlines, it's a great deal.


http://www.1899.com/index2.php

I immediately got the message: 'The number you have dialled has not been recognised' after just dialling 1899.

If you are dialling the 1899 prefix please ensure you are calling from a BT line; only BT landlines in the United Kingdom or Northern Ireland can use our service via the 1899 code.

NTL, Telewest, Kingston Communications, Jersey Telecom customers and any other landline provider or mobile customers should use 0808 170 7474 to make a call.

Callers from the Republic of Ireland unfortunately cannot register for our service.

As for Internet service providers, there are several as Dezzo or Monkey-breath pointed out that are available to Ntl customers. It really should be that hard to find alternative suppliers. Like others also pointed out, there is also BT. I found the switch relatively painless, maybe if your that fed up its time to look again.

[etccarmageddon]

that's no good unless they also give him his internet dial up access for £10 a month.

[ackees]

Unfortunately many people have swallowed the †˜switch providerââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ trap hook line and sinker. Switching waste time and money and causes distress to honest customers. The telecoms providers have massaged this well and play cleaver games with it.
It is a bit like saying if you do not like the bread prices in London got to Scotland to get your bread, and if the price jumps up there run back to London for your bread, nuts.
The service provider in each area must be made to supply services at a certain standard and they must be forced to maintained reasonable prices and their price increases must be reasonable. A 25% price rise after a 100% price rise is not reasonable.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by ackees

Unfortunately many people have swallowed the †˜switch providerââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ trap hook line and sinker. Switching waste time and money and causes distress to honest customers. The telecoms providers have massaged this well and play cleaver games with it.
It is a bit like saying if you do not like the bread prices in London got to Scotland to get your bread, and if the price jumps up there run back to London for your bread, nuts.
The service provider in each area must be made to supply services at a certain standard and they must be forced to maintained reasonable prices and their price increases must be reasonable. A 25% price rise after a 100% price rise is not reasonable.

Nice in the perfect world but these companies are in business to make money not to be there for us. I wish it could work like this but its sadly pie in the sky.

If you owned a telecoms compnay would you now want to maximise profits and expand your empire ?

I am no fan of NTL but I can see why they have done this ( all be it in a slightly underhand way )