[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Chris

It is generally accepted that Thatcher capitulated to Europhiles in her cabinet who wanted in to the ERM, and always regretted acceding to it.

No, it was more than that. And I know that history paints a different picture now.

She was pro-European. THis is one of the many things that was widely misunderstood about her.

If she were alive today she would've spearheaded a European army to take on the Russians in Ukraine and deal with the migrant crisis coming out of Syria. She did not like weakness in any form and she would've been horrified about the way the politicians of today go about things.

It is hard to imagine in these days, but before the Germans came to dominate all things European after their unification, we were the strongest voice in Europe. And perhaps if she had have moderated her language or the way she went about things a little differently, rather than facing Brexit, we could have been the leaders of Europe.

It was still a male dominated world back then and what people hated the most about her was the fact she was a woman, especially from those on the Left and the so called social democratic/liberal parties of Europe.

But some things don't change. Whether Thatcher of yesterday or Cameron of today, there's always the French to deal with!

[heero_yuy]

A series of major disputes remain unresolved going into the 24 hour gathering, including on his plan to limit tax credits to new migrants and slash child benefit payments to families abroad.

But No10 believe the most serious threat is a bid by countries lead by France to block any mention of the PM’s bid to opt out of “ever closer union” principle and key protections for the City of London in the next EU treaty.

Without the key legal recognition, euro judges will be able to swiftly override the key pledges.

Linky

And there in a nutshell we have it. Without it in law then Dave's deal amounts to sweet FA.

A vote to stay means more EU, more migrants, more meddling and the eventual relegation of the UK government to the status of a parish council debating chamber.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Even if Cameron, gets what he wants. He then has to put it to the British voter.

And l cannot see the point in being in the EU. If we pay a lot of money into the EU pot, and we get even half back. Then what the points.

Britian will be dictated to by the EU, and no matter what Cameron says. Britain will be worse off.

At the present time Britain allows our tax money, to pay for benefits to people, that don't even live here.

And yet, people are struggling in this country.

[heero_yuy]

Can't fault you there Arthur.

Originally Posted by Damien

Scaremongering on the other side too as Vote Leave frame the discussion as saving your hospital:

It's mind-boggling, the extent to which these arguments mirror those deployed in Scotland in 2014.

Back then, we had the Yessers trying to make the NHS an issue, in their case by use of some very torturous reasoning to try to prove the (entirely devolved) Scottish NHS was somehow at risk from remaining in the Union.

Originally Posted by Chris

It's mind-boggling, the extent to which these arguments mirror those deployed in Scotland in 2014.

Back then, we had the Yessers trying to make the NHS an issue, in their case by use of some very torturous reasoning to try to prove the (entirely devolved) Scottish NHS was somehow at risk from remaining in the Union.

Yup. I think most of the arguments will be the same from both the Stay/Leave campaigns.

Leave will point out the 'democratic deficit', the prosperous future and the flaws in the existing arrangement. Stay will point to instability, fear factor and wheel out big business.

Even the place the two camps come from are similar. A battle between a leave campaign which spent so long attempting to get this vote but aren't quite sure what to do when it comes and a Stay campaign that has been lazy and never wanted to do this in the first place.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

Yup. I think most of the arguments will be the same from both the Stay/Leave campaigns.

Leave will point out the 'democratic deficit', the prosperous future and the flaws in the existing arrangement. Stay will point to instability, fear factor and wheel out big business.

Even the place the two camps come from are similar. A battle between a leave campaign which spent so long attempting to get this vote but aren't quite sure what to do when it comes and a Stay campaign that has been lazy and never wanted to do this in the first place.

I don't think the kipper hierarchy want to leave, we leave and their reason for being ceases and the gravy train they're scoffing more than most from hits the buffers. That might not be true of nigel himself but it is of his closest acolytes.

Seems to me we have a divided leave campaign and a stay campaign that can't be bothered to do anything other than peddle lies, it's dissapointing such an important and historic decision is being treated so shabbily imo

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Chris

It's mind-boggling, the extent to which these arguments mirror those deployed in Scotland in 2014.

Back then, we had the Yessers trying to make the NHS an issue, in their case by use of some very torturous reasoning to try to prove the (entirely devolved) Scottish NHS was somehow at risk from remaining in the Union.

Surely the objective of the EU as a unified state must inevitably mean a unified tax system, unified benefits system and unified health provision. No other EU country funds its health system as we do so we will have to change to the EU system of health insurance.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Surely the objective of the EU as a unified state must inevitably mean a unified tax system, unified benefits system and unified health provision. No other EU country funds its health system as we do so we will have to change to the EU system of health insurance.

I think that is a bit of a leap. Not least because the EU states all have their own systems of healthcare implemented in different ways. I doubt even the leaflet is going that far, they're properly talking about the Transatlantic Trade agreement.

[peanut]

Begging Dave is starting to look desperate and embarrassing for the UK. Not so smug now are you Dave.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by peanut

Begging Dave is starting to look desperate and embarrassing for the UK. Not so smug now are you Dave.

Watered down gruel. Please sir can I have some more?

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Surely the objective of the EU as a unified state must inevitably mean a unified tax system, unified benefits system and unified health provision. No other EU country funds its health system as we do so we will have to change to the EU system of health insurance.

Except they don't want a unified state....

Ask the Germans or French if they want a United States of Europe and its a resounding no. They want "more Europe" and "closer together" not merger. Merkel has repeatedly said that German law in Germany is supreme and she will not except Brussels diktats. German newspapers mention daily that Brussels is getting too powerful.

Personally, I don't think they have ever known what they are doing and it will all end in tears.

[Taf]

Well it would appear that Dave has delivered his CV to the Eurocrats. He just has to wait to see what post he'll get once he retires from No 10.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

Well it would appear that Dave has delivered his CV to the Eurocrats. He just has to wait to see what post he'll get once he retires from No 10.

However, I think he'd earn a great deal more for a great deal less work if he just emulated Bliar.

Back to topic - I'd have less of a problem with Europe if they had a credible plan for getting where they say they want to go. As it is, we've suffered decades of dubious decision making, cozy deals and ineffectual policy to get us into the complete state of chaos we're seeing now and there's not a shred of evidence that they've learned anything from past mistakes and flawed ideology. Nope, the grand 'plan' seems to be more of the same - admit more members to the club no matter what...

[Kymmy]

Just think though if we stay in, the migrant crisis is gonna hit Europe hard and all it takes is for the UK (which we're not in Schengen) to vote against those who want to spread the migrants about to force in the future yet a greater deal for us without us accepting any migrants currently floating in Europe

I've been on the in/out fence for a bit, As a business I can see the monetary benefits (which do outweigh the monetary costs) yet also see the inane rules forced on us. Currently I'd vote in... but only just..