Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

I am currently working on something in the background to try and get the "people's" message across in the media arena. I can't go into more details because I am awaiting a response from a 3rd party before I can confirm, but if that response is positive, I can assure you it will be (I think) be a significant step.

No Alexander!
Come down off that tower immediately!

[AlexanderHanff]

OK everyone time to put our Digg hats on:

http://digg.com/tech_news/Unedited_V...rm_PIA_meeting

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

yeah I know I typod the title, can't fix it though so sorry.

[jelv]

Has anyone else had a response from BT today offering to exclude their website from profiling by the BT Webwise system? All I have to do apparently is provide the URL's.

[mark777]

Originally Posted by R Jones

I have had en email with a series of questions about Phorm/Webwise answered (sort of) by a BT manager. My post with the questions (edited for brevity) and the answers is over on BT Beta forums and can be seen without registering.
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=18175#18175
or http://tinyurl.com/4pyqhn

It took quite a bit of effort to get the answers with as much pressure as a mere customer is able to exert, but eventually the system did respond.

I'm not posting them here because it's not really appropriate to quote a BT manager answering questions about the BT Webwise system here on a VM forum, - but I'm sure people here will find the answers interesting. I'd be grateful for any comments you want to make either here or there.

I'll delay making my own comments until I have had some feedback.

"11) What will happen to the "browsing experience" of a BT customer who adds all the various oix/phorm/webwise domains to his/her HOSTS file, once Webwise/Phorm is in place? Will that "break" my browsing experience?

If a customer who is invited to participate in the trial adds www.webwise.net to their local HOSTS file with the resolved address of 127.0.0.1, they will not be able to browse the Internet on HTTP port 80 on that PC for the period of the trial. This is because access to www.webwise.net is required in order to process the consent status of the user during the trial. Instead, and as per the advice on the www.bt.com/webwise site, the recommended approach for excluding a PC from the Webwise service if the user regularly deletes cookies is to add www.webwise.net to the browser's blocked cookie list. As previously stated, in parallel with the forthcoming trial, we are developing a solution which will manage the choice of users without the use of cookies. We believe this approach is reasonable and is supported by the advice we have received."


Blocking dodgy domains is a reasonable action. The default position on this should be opt-out, so if the question can't be asked, that should be the assumption.

Unless you are prepared to visit a dodgy domain they will break your browser.

[Ravenheart]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

OK everyone time to put our Digg hats on:

Dugg


The reply from the BT manager is interesting reading, and if I've read it right his answer to point 11 could open a whole new can of worms for BT

[mark777]

Originally Posted by jelv

Has anyone else had a response from BT today offering to exclude their website from profiling by the BT Webwise system? All I have to do apparently is provide the URL's.

If this is what they are doing it's an opt-out and should be an opt-in.

[OldBear]

Originally Posted by R Jones

I have had en email with a series of questions about Phorm/Webwise answered (sort of) by a BT manager. My post with the questions (edited for brevity) and the answers is over on BT Beta forums and can be seen without registering.
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=18175#18175
or http://tinyurl.com/4pyqhn

It took quite a bit of effort to get the answers with as much pressure as a mere customer is able to exert, but eventually the system did respond.

I'm not posting them here because it's not really appropriate to quote a BT manager answering questions about the BT Webwise system here on a VM forum, - but I'm sure people here will find the answers interesting. I'd be grateful for any comments you want to make either here or there.

I'll delay making my own comments until I have had some feedback.

Can I urge all members posting here to read this gentleman's post over on the BT forum, especially the answers to questions 8 and 11.

Given the answers given by the BT rep, I think it may be worth all you VM customers asking the same questions of your CS help desk.

OB

Edit: Apologies to those posting the same time as me who have already read Mr Jones' reply.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by jelv

Has anyone else had a response from BT today offering to exclude their website from profiling by the BT Webwise system? All I have to do apparently is provide the URL's.

I wouldn't call it an "offer" - more a response to my demand! But - yes.
See my post above and the detail on BT Beta Forum
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=18175#18175

[Bonglet]

Interesting comment on the vm webwise fact site

We found that this system met our high standards for simplicity and privacy – so your privacy is assured.

Given virgin media's silence on the whole issue im a bit worried about how they found this information as some sort of test would have to be carried out on the vm network they cant rely on bt data as its a seperate network .

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by Ravenheart

Dugg


The reply from the BT manager is interesting reading, and if I've read it right his answer to point 11 could open a whole new can of worms for BT

Firstly I never stated the gender of the manager!!

But that aside, I think it needs careful reading - I THINK it means that if you opt-IN to the forthcoming 10,000 member BT trial of Webwise, and THEN block the dodgy domains, your browsing will break totally. I can see the logic of that - if you "agree" to be redirected and then block the redirection domains, of course your browsing will be broken.

But it COULD mean that even if you don't opt-in, your browser will still be broken. BT have not yet worked out a cookie free way of opting out/avoiding the system, so this trial is likely to depend on cookies. I'm not clear on that yet.

What I really want to know is what happens to an ordinary BT customer who blocks these domains while the trial is on, but who has not opted in (and has blocked the relevant cookies so doesn't have any) or who has actually opted out and kept the cookie, but blocked the redirection domains.

Remember BT are saying very little about how their trial will work, and virtually nothing about how the final system will work. I think they are running backwards fast - redesigning it as they go - as each legal pronouncement comes out from ICO or Home Office or whatever - precisely what Simon Davies of 80.20 warned about in his interim privacy report when he said it was very late in the day for a genuine PIA - in fact a PIA would not actually be possible -which is why he is calling the latest bit of work a (quote from interim privacy report) late stage implementation� PIA model that aims to satisfy most, if not all, of the criteria of a “full product cycle� PIA. (end of quote)

I don't think BT have fully realised that even the invitation to participate in the BTWebwise trial will require very careful handling to avoid it being an illegal interception of browsing traffic. If the invitation pops up while I am visting www.bt.com, and logged into that site, or perhaps visiting my BTYahoo! ISP customer service pages at http://home.bt.yahoo.com/, or the webmail at http://bt.yahoo.com/webmail, as a logged in customer, it could be regarded as a legal interaction with a customer. (but not if they ask an underage child using one of my sub accounts - especially as I have notified them that they must ask me as the contract holder, and not anyone else in my family)

But if the Webwise trial invitation just pops up when I am trying to visit anywhereontheweb.com, while connected via my BT Broadband connection, then I reckon that will be an illegal interception of my browsing with a third party by my ISP.

Reading the questions and answers it is clear to me that as yet, BT don't know some of the answers that they NEED to know before starting their trial. Bear in mind that it was due to start in March, and it hasn't happened yet. I think it hasn't happened because they are still trying to sort all these sort of things out, and they know they are on dodgy ground legally and commercially with several of the details they thought they had in place but which have now been publicly questioned and found wanting.

[OF1975]

Dugg as per request.

Originally Posted by Bonglet

Interesting comment on the vm webwise fact site

We found that this system met our high standards for simplicity and privacy – so your privacy is assured.

Given virgin media's silence on the whole issue im a bit worried about how they found this information as some sort of test would have to be carried out on the vm network they cant rely on bt data as its a seperate network .

As has been pointed out before the rough translation is: "We are going to hold our horses before implementing this and rest assured that if BT get away with it we will be rolling it out quicker than a VM director can join the board of Phorm"

[JackSon]

Originally Posted by R Jones

But that aside, I think it needs careful reading - I THINK it means that if you opt-IN to the forthcoming 10,000 member BT trial of Webwise, and THEN block the dodgy domains, your browsing will break totally. I can see the logic of that - if you "agree" to be redirected and then block the redirection domains, of course your browsing will be broken.

Welcome R Jones, and well done on obtaining answers

To add my view, I was really taken by the phrase "if you are invited to participate" in the answer to that question. To me that suggests the webwise.net domain will be needed to browse the web wether you are opted in or out. It also mentioned the need for that domain in order to determine consent. that to me suggests that opt in or out is detected by a process using that domain - so if it isblocked, it cannot tell your status and doesnt let you proceed with any browsing.

However, if I have gotten the wrong end of the stick I am more than happy to have it turned around

[Deko]

Anyone care to comment on this

from here :http://www.advfn.com/cmn/fbb/thread.php3?id=14453044

ferdinandling - 18 Apr'08 - 21:00 - 1441 of 1441


Don't know who the RIPA expert was. His name was Casper something. The chairman (previous chairman of FIPR) knew him by name and explained to the audience that eh was probably the world's leading light with regard to RIPA. He agreed that the system was legal under that law.

Whilst we are on that subject, Dr Clayton admitted that the ICO had made an error about another law PECR requring opt-in. I'm not a techie so don't quite understand but along the lines of...Regulation 7 of PECR is referring only to traffic data. The Phorm system does not use traffic data, therefore the ICO's recommendation about OPt-in is not valid.

FInally, the last law that Phorm has been accused of breaking is the Data Protection Act. Dr Clayton's own review of the Phorm system (in MArch) agreed that it did not fall foul of any data protection rules.

Summary - legal underall three relevant laws.
Question - do you really think that BT's legal department would have spent 6 months looking into this and made an error when they decided to give the green light. Same with the Home OFfice, the ICO, the QC's thta gave legal opinion etc etc.

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by smcicr

Just by way of info - here is the current statement for interested / concerned customers from VM on this - to me it appears to be a definite step back from the initial info on the VM Webwise page (http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php)

Latest Statement.

"We're still currently focused on understanding better the Webwise technology and the many complicated technical questions around how it could be integrated into our network architecture. We can therefore say at this stage that a) there are absolutely no foregone conclusions; and b) consumer concerns around privacy and data protection, not to mention any adverse impact on Virgin Media's reputation, are (and will remain) an important element in our deliberations.

In the event Virgin Media does roll out this solution, all customers will be notified and will not be forced to use the system. However, to reiterate, no solution has yet been implemented and will not be until we are confident that it is compliant to do so."

That is not watt I got, wen I wen't to VM Webwise page. this is watt I got:

Webwise



Dear customer

You may have heard recently that Virgin Media will be working with a company, Phorm, to provide our broadband customers with new online protection and enhanced features. When we were looking at this solution, we had some questions, and you might do too, so we’ve put together the information below to help you understand what it’s all about and how it’ll help to make your internet experience safer, and more relevant to you.

Phorm is the company providing this innovative solution, and it’s called Webwise. Webwise will help provide you with a safer and more relevant online experience by helping you avoid scam emails or websites, as well as making your online experience more relevant through advertising that matches your areas of interest.

A safer experience

Webwise will help you avoid scams, such as ‘phishing’ – this is where someone pretends to be a well known brand, like a bank, but is looking to steal your confidential information. You might receive an email which appears to be authentic, asking you to enter details such as account numbers and passwords, which are then stolen and used fraudulently. Commonly known as ‘phishing’, these websites can be hard to spot as they are designed to look just like genuine websites.

Webwise checks these sites against a regularly updated list of fraudulent sites and warns you if you’re heading to one. You’re given the option to continue to that site or not, so Webwise won’t restrict your online experience in any way, but at least you’ll be able to decide for yourself and avoid this form of identity theft. In this way, Webwise can help to protect your personal information.

A more relevant browsing experience

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As you browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again your privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help some advertisers replace their adverts with ones that might be more relevant to you. Don’t worry, you won’t see any more adverts than you currently do, some of them will just be more relevant. For example if you searched for keywords like “Paris� and “Eurostar�, instead of random uninteresting adverts, you might see an advert for French hotels instead.

Protecting your privacy

Webwise has been designed from the ground up to protect your privacy and anonymity. As the system only learns about topics of interest, it does this anonymously, ensuring your privacy is completely protected.

We found that this system met our high standards for simplicity and privacy – so your privacy is assured. These privacy standards were also verified independently by Ernst & Young who conducted a detailed audit of the whole process and Webwise solution.

As a Virgin Media customer, you won’t be forced to use Webwise, so you’ll be able to keep your internet experience as it is now.

We are currently at the early stages of working to deliver the Webwise solution and will be writing to you nearer the time to advise when the solution will be ‘switched on’ providing more detail of what this will mean to you. Given the benefits of Webwise, we’re pleased to be offering you this service and making your web experience safer and more relevant.


Virgin Media

To me that is just spin and more spin.

[Bonglet]

How can they even trial test this out when full independant test's of the system by any relevant government appointed person's or company's has not happened (all we have is hear say by the companies involved with all these test's carried out without any of the public's knowledge and paid for by the company's) is there no government protection involved when ANY test involve the general public?