smoking and the pub

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by andyl

Poverty is no doubt the biggest killer. But the issue with smoking, for me, is the impact it can have on others, not on the individual partaking. It may be just one in a range of life limiting factors but it is one we know about and can relatively easily address, in terms of passive smoking. We can and should be doing something about it on that basis. Addressing poverty and disadvantage is a far biggger issue but one I'm happy to join you in fighting.

But to be honest I don't really know whether stopping smoking in pubs for instance is really going to address the issue. As I have said previously adults can choose (generally speaking) to sit, work etc. in a pub where smoking is permitted. (Also good filtration systems can minimise much of the smoke). Children, however, do not have such a choice. So while pubs are nice and smoke free parents are still puffing away at home or in the car around their children. As much as I would not support making smoking illegal, if the government was serious about addressing the ill effects then at least proposing this would mean it wasn't spineless. Or maybe Blair's waiting for Bush's signal .

Originally Posted by SlackDad

But to be honest I don't really know whether stopping smoking in pubs for instance is really going to address the issue. As I have said previously adults can choose (generally speaking) to sit, work etc. in a pub where smoking is permitted. (Also good filtration systems can minimise much of the smoke). Children, however, do not have such a choice. So while pubs are nice and smoke free parents are still puffing away at home or in the car around their children. As much as I would not support making smoking illegal, if the government was serious about addressing the ill effects then at least proposing this would mean it wasn't spineless. Or maybe Blair's waiting for Bush's signal .

This is true to an extent, but the evidence from New York and Ireland has been that one in 12 smokers has already quit as a direct result of the ban. It's a good step in the right direction. Addiionally, the change in law sends out a signal that smoking is no longer socially acceptable, and in time that will filter through and hopefully help provide more smokers with the extra oomph they need to find the willpower to quit.

[smicer07]

Ultimately, if you drink alcohol you are only ruining your own body. If you smoke you're not only ruining your own, but everybody else's whether they like it or not. And that's not right.

Spent a few days in Largs, home to Scotland's best chippy, apparently. A lovely, scenic, rain-sodden place. You'll be pleased to hear Nardini's do a smoothie that lets you get all five daily fruit portions in a suingle glass.

We did visit Glasgow on a day where RTAs on the M8 summed up the city's dietary habits wonderfully. First a tanker shed its load of lard, then a lorry overturned its load of pop and crisps. BTW, does Irn Bru make your hair go ginger?

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by clarie

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact02.html


http://www.recovery.org.uk/druginfo/index.html

yeah but the issue is deaths by passive smoking and 'passive' alcohol use. how many people are murdered or injuired annually due to booze and how many people die due to passive smoking or suffer illness because of it?

[clarie]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Children, however, do not have such a choice. So while pubs are nice and smoke free parents are still puffing away at home or in the car around their children.

This is a problem. Someone (maybe you?) said earlier that if you disallow people smoking in pubs they may be more likely to smoke at home in front of the children. Sadly that is something we cannot address without a complete ban on smoking. Unless it was made illegal to smoke in front of children, which would surely be impossible to monitor. Unfortunately this is a difficult one to deal with. I think it's appalling when people smoke in front of their kids.

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by Chris T

This is true to an extent, but the evidence from New York and Ireland has been that one in 12 smokers has already quit as a direct result of the ban. It's a good step in the right direction. Addiionally, the change in law sends out a signal that smoking is no longer socially acceptable, and in time that will filter through and hopefully help provide more smokers with the extra oomph they need to find the willpower to quit.

Good news about the giving up rates in New York and ireland, but what about the take-up rates. Sometimes making something more socially undesiarble only serves to increase its attractiveness to those it is specifically targeted at. I'm thinking of rebelling teenagers for instance.

Originally Posted by andyl

Spent a few days in Largs, home to Scotland's best chippy, apparently. A lovely, scenic, rain-sodden place. You'll be pleased to hear Nardini's do a smoothie that lets you get all five daily fruit portions in a suingle glass.

Ah, Largs ... many a happy summer holiday have I spent there (and in the family holiday flat over the water in Millport). I know the Nardinis of which you speak. Hopefully you weren't sat in the seat our potty-training son drenched last August. Why suddenly like Yoda do I talk?

We did visit Glasgow on a day where RTAs on the M8 summed up the city's dietary habits wonderfully. First a tanker shed its load of lard, then a lorry overturned its load of pop and crisps. BTW, does Irn Bru make your hair go ginger?

I remember it well. It took me months to work out why it is when you walk past a chippy in Glasgow, the smell drifting onto the street is different than anywhere else in the UK. I think they really still do fry the chips in animal fat. And Irn Bru hasn't turned me ginger yet.

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by clarie

Oh lucky you!

I remember once going to a Little Chef, back in the day when I was a smoker. I ate breakfast with my friends, and then went to the smoking area to have a cigarette. Which was literally the table next door, with a little separation wall (you know the type that's about 30cm higher than the table.

I cringe with the memory.

oh my god Clarie - you were once one of 'them'!

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Good news about the giving up rates in New York and ireland, but what about the take-up rates. Sometimes making something more socially undesiarble only serves to increase its attractiveness to those it is specifically targeted at. I'm thinking of rebelling teenagers for instance.

That's a very good question, but given the highly-charged nature of the public debate in England this past week, I suspect if the take-up rate had increased, someone somewhere would have quoted the statistic by now in defence of their position.

[Salu]

Here are some more frightening statistics. Worryingly though are the facts about teenagers. By allowing smoking in pubs we are hardly sending out preventative messages to our teenagers....We need to get serious about stopping smoking and stopping the habit being formed.

Off the top of my head there are something like 1000 admissions everyday to hospitals in the UK due to smoking related diseases.

About one fifth of Britain's 15 year-olds †“ 18% of boys and 26% of girls - are regular smokers - despite the fact that it is illegal to sell cigarettes to children aged under16

Tobacco is the only legally available consumer product which kills people when it is used entirely as intended

Deaths caused by smoking are five times higher than the 22,833 deaths arising from: road traffic accidents (3,439), other accidents (8,579), poisoning and overdose (881), alcoholic liver disease (5,121), murder and manslaughter (513), suicide (4,066), and HIV infection (234) in the UK during 2002.

More than 80% of smokers take up the habit as teenagers.

Half of all teenagers who are currently smoking will die from diseases caused by tobacco if they continue to smoke. One quarter will die after 70 years of age and one quarter before, with those dying before 70 losing on average 21 years of life. [2] It is estimated that between 1950 and 2000 six million Britons, 60 million people worldwide, would have died from tobacco-related diseases

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris T

That's a very good question, but given the highly-charged nature of the public debate in England this past week, I suspect if the take-up rate had increased, someone somewhere would have quoted the statistic by now in defence of their position.

I don't think any smoker would be happy, or celebrate, if there was a rise in young people taking up smoking

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by Salu

Here are some more frightening statistics. Worryingly though are the facts about teenagers. By allowing smoking in pubs we are hardly sending out preventative messages to our teenagers....We need to get serious about stopping smoking and stopping the habit being formed.

Off the top of my head there are something like 1000 admissions everyday to hospitals in the UK due to smoking related diseases.

These stats only go to back up my previous point about making smoking more and more unattractive sometimes has the opposite effect, especially when in a rebelling mood, i.e many teenagers. Think of the times trying to sneak a quick ciggie at school without being caught for instance.

Another very salient point. While in Europe and the USA the tobacco comapnies are finding it harder and harder to ply their trade, they don't just disappear. Rather they move to developing areas of the world where perhaps the effects are not so widely publicised or the health infrastructures not in place to advise and support. So a perceived benefit here may be having a detrimental effect elsewhere.

[Salu]

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact03.html

Here are some facts about teens and smoking. You would have hoped that the situation would have improved over the past twenty years or so. It's not changed much though sadly.....

450 children in Great Britain start smoking EVERY DAY.....

[clarie]

How many people die?Second hand smoke is one of the main sources of indoor pollution. Exposure to second-hand smoke at home causes the deaths of 2,700 over-20 year olds in the UK every year. This equates to a total of 30 people dying from passive smoking each day. Two of the 30 are victims in the workplace; this figure is twice the number of deaths caused by workplace accidents.



<H2>Workplace exposure

If you thought the only people who were affected by passive smoking at work were barmen and waiters, think again. Less than one in ten people killed by passive smoking at work each year are employed in pubs, clubs and restaurants.

The government is planning a smoking ban in pubs and clubs where food is served. Many anti-smoking health campaigners are calling for a total ban on smoking in all enclosed public places.

http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs...assive/smoking</H2>

An estimated 23,000 incidents of alcohol-related violence take place in Britain each week, contributing to an overall expenditure of £7 billion per year dealing with the consequences of alcohol-related crime.

http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/servlets/doc/848

Now at first glance the numbers of alcohol-related violent incidents are undeniably higher than the numbers of deaths caused by passive smoking. Alcohol is clearly a problem too. But I think it difficult to compare a violent incident with a terminal illness/death. People who are violent when drunk can often be violent when sobre. Alcohol aggravates violence and whilst this needs to be addressed, it cannot and will not be addressed as easily as the problems of passive smoking.

These figures, although scary, do not detract from the imminent dangers of smoking.

To discuss this further a thread on the dangers of alcohol might be a good idea.
__________________

Originally Posted by etccarmageddon

oh my god Clarie - you were once one of 'them'!

Yeah! I spoke about this earlier on - I think it makes me one of the more vehement anti-smokers.