[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Decent summary here: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...-need-to-know/

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Big News: Cameron will BACK the In campaign.

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Even Bigger News: Farage isn't impressed with the deal - want's out.

Right, so the rather pointless theatre is all over, and we can now get on with the business of debating whether the EU is good for Great Britain or not.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Chris

Right, so the rather pointless theatre is all over, and we can now get on with the business of debating whether the EU is good for Great Britain or not.

I doubt it. The public will be told how to vote and those that bother to will mostly oblige.

The issues are irrelevant, the public aren't interested. Most don't understand the economics. Just as long as those bleeding migrants are given the 'red card' or hit over the head with an 'emergency brake'; that will be enough for most voters, even if it means diddly squat in practice.

[ntluser]

I think this went as predicted with Cameron, like Osborne, claiming a great victory in negotiations with the EU.

First we had Osborne telling us that, after hard negotiating, he had wrestled concessions from the EU over the UK contribution to the EU budget, then we later discover that he had simply offset the UK rebate against the debt.

Now we have Cameron coming down from the mountain telling us that his proposals for change, inadequate as they are, have been broadly accepted bar the detail.

Unfortunately we still have the same problems:-

a) we still can't control the number of EU migrants coming here

b) we still can't deport foreign criminals

c) we still have to pay a massive contribution to support the EU & to support the gravy train existence of MEPs

d) we still have to pay the French to control their border as they are conveniently
unable to control the outflow of migrants via the Channel tunnel

e) we can't apply national vetos unless 55% of EU leaders agree but given that the UK is unpopular in Europe agreement seems unlikely, indeed Cameron cannot even rely on the support of his so-called allies in the EU

When the EU referendum comes the citizens of the UK need to ensure that they do not make the same mistake with regard to the EU as the Scots did by choosing to remain in the UK.

The government cannot be trusted with the best interests of UK citizens as they are already fixing the vote conditions to ensure that the UK remains within the EU. Heath took us in, Major kept us there and now Cameron wants to keep us there permanently.

UK voters need to wake up to the idea that Cameron's proposals are just window dressing that mean nothing and we should all be ready to vote to leave the EU.

Originally Posted by ntluser

d) we still have to pay the French to control their border as they are conveniently
unable to control the outflow of migrants via the Channel tunnel

This is a separate agreement that requires the cooperation of the French. If they wanted they could say sod it and let us worry about it when they reach our borders.

If we had mass migrants/refugee camps in Dover of people trying to get into France how willing would we be to help the French secure their borders and keep them here?

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Damien

This is a separate agreement that requires the cooperation of the French. If they wanted they could say sod it and let us worry about it when they reach our borders.

If we had mass migrants/refugee camps in Dover of people trying to get into France how willing would we be to help the French secure their borders and keep them here?

Perhaps so but it makes a mockery of the idea that they are required to register in the first country they arrive in but many are simply waved through to the UK.

Maybe we should consider closing the Channel Tunnel or build an army base at this end to have greater control over who comes in.

National security in the EU is a joke given the ease with which migrants can cross national borders.

[TheDaddy]

Anyone else see this 55% veto thing being used against us in the future

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Right, so the rather pointless theatre is all over, and we can now get on with the business of debating whether the EU is good for Great Britain or not.

We could've been doing that for years anyway now we're all being asked to make a decision ignorant of facts,what could possibly go wrong

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I don't recall voting for any of those in power in the EU

You didn't vote in your European or Parliamentary elections?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by ntluser

I think this went as predicted with Cameron, like Osborne, claiming a great victory in negotiations with the EU.

First we had Osborne telling us that, after hard negotiating, he had wrestled concessions from the EU over the UK contribution to the EU budget, then we later discover that he had simply offset the UK rebate against the debt.

Now we have Cameron coming down from the mountain telling us that his proposals for change, inadequate as they are, have been broadly accepted bar the detail.

Unfortunately we still have the same problems:-

a) we still can't control the number of EU migrants coming here

b) we still can't deport foreign criminals

c) we still have to pay a massive contribution to support the EU & to support the gravy train existence of MEPs

d) we still have to pay the French to control their border as they are conveniently
unable to control the outflow of migrants via the Channel tunnel

e) we can't apply national vetos unless 55% of EU leaders agree but given that the UK is unpopular in Europe agreement seems unlikely, indeed Cameron cannot even rely on the support of his so-called allies in the EU

When the EU referendum comes the citizens of the UK need to ensure that they do not make the same mistake with regard to the EU as the Scots did by choosing to remain in the UK.

The government cannot be trusted with the best interests of UK citizens as they are already fixing the vote conditions to ensure that the UK remains within the EU. Heath took us in, Major kept us there and now Cameron wants to keep us there permanently.

UK voters need to wake up to the idea that Cameron's proposals are just window dressing that mean nothing and we should all be ready to vote to leave the EU.

I tend to agree. I see nothing being proposed which will deal with the problems Europe is facing and I have no faith whatsoever that the EU is capable of being sufficiently reformed to handle what inevitably lies ahead. As I've said before, leaving does pose serious risks but IMHO staying poses far more serious risks to our way of life. The EU has become like a very unhappy polygamous/polyandrous marriage. There are too many competing interests and ever closer union is as much a nonsense as a single currency but they will never accept that. Better to have an amicable, controlled split before waiting to the point where all hell breaks loose. I'm voting out!

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Osem

Better to have an amicable, controlled split before waiting to the point where all hell breaks loose. I'm voting out!

Agreed.

Better to be in the lifeboat when the ship goes down than re-arranging the deckchairs.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Agreed.

Better to be in the lifeboat when the ship goes down than re-arranging the deckchairs.

At the very worst, at least the UK would get around to rearranging the deckchairs on our sinking ship. The EU wouldn't even get that far - the Germans would be too busy whining about their towels and the rest would still be arguing about who rearranges which chairs and whether or not they're breaking any EU laws by doing so as they went under...

[ntluser]

The proposals have to be put to the other EU leaders and it will be interesting to see if they agree with them.

As it is Cameron's original proposals were inadequate at best, failing to address the concerns of ordinary people but even they have been watered down in such a way that we need the support of other EU leaders to carry things through rather than being to act independently irrespective of their support.

It's time for Conservative sceptics to step up to the plate and challenge his leadership as he is leading them, the Conservative party and the country in the wrong direction. Failure to do so could lead to a massive loss of support as there is already a great mistrust of Conservative politicians especially after the expenses scandal and George Osborne's attempt to con the UK public that he had actually negotiated a reduction of our EU contribution when in reality he had simply used our rebate.

Cameron's Conservatives are more concerned with promoting a successful image which as many voters have found is contrary to the truth. The much toted Universal State Pension for example only applies to people who retire following the legislation and not to all the other hard working qualifying pensioners who retired earlier.

As for the EU proposals, my only hope is that the proposals are not accepted by the other EU leaders, which means that in the EU Referendum vote voters will have to vote on the basis of how things are now hopefully increasing the chances of a vote to leave.

It will be very interesting to see how this turns out but like all these matters only time will tell what the outcome will be.

[richard s]

I have come to change my mind on being a pro-European.... Lets get the hell out.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by richard s

I have come to change my mind on being a pro-European.... Lets get the hell out.

If only other Pro-Europeans would do the same.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by richard s

I have come to change my mind on being a pro-European.... Lets get the hell out.

Funny I'm leaning in the other direction, I was anti EU long before it was fashionable but now on the brink of leaving I don't think I'm informed well enough to make the right choice.