smoking and the pub

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Agreed but my alcohol comment was two lines. You fail to address the other points I make re obesity rates, lifestyles etc. and the fact that some people do smoke all their lives without ill effects.

I fail to make further comment on your line of reasoning about alcohol, because, as I've said repeatedly, nothing you can say about alcohol makes tobacco smoking any less dangerous. I'm quite happy to discuss whether we as a nation treat alcohol appropriately but that's for another thread.

As for smokers who live to a grand old age - yes, I've known a couple of them myself. But again, the fact that you can point to an anomaly does not in any way change the statistics. And until we understand why some people get away with it, I'm frankly amazed that some people want to play Russian Roulette with their lives.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Agreed but the debate appeared to be steering towards individuals right to smoke per se, regardless of whether this was in front of others, hence my comments.

I see. Well of course I do believe that smokers should continue to have the right to smoke, whilst smoking is legal, as long as it's not in front of others. I do think that it would be good if the whole thing was made illegal, but whilst it isn't, and doesn't look likely to be, I would not attack the right of a smoker to smoke.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Agreed but my alcohol comment was two lines. You fail to address the other points I make re obesity rates, lifestyles etc. and the fact that some people do smoke all their lives without ill effects.

__________________

Of course they're not addressed - it doesn't suit their agenda does it?...

Originally Posted by orangebird

__________________

Of course they're not addressed - it doesn't suit their agenda does it?...

That's a cheap shot OB. You know exactly the reasons why my argument has followed the line it has, because I have explained it repeatedly. Disagree by all means but please at least acknowledge that I'm not trying to skew the argument in favour of some agenda.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Of course they're not addressed - it doesn't suit their agenda does it?...

How about instead of making snidy comments you address the debate itself?

As said above, those factors have an impact on our lifestyles, but so what? It's not relevant to this debate, it doesn't take away from the danger of smoking and above all, we cannot address them all in one fell swoop.

The whole point of this thread is to address whether or not people should be allowed to smoke in enclosed public places, because of the effects of passive smoking. Issues such as obesity and stress do not directly affect the health of others.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Chris T

That's a cheap shot OB. You know exactly the reasons why my argument has followed the line it has, because I have explained it repeatedly. Disagree by all means but please at least acknowledge that I'm not trying to skew the argument in favour of some agenda.

No, it wasn't a cheap shot. Obesity kills. Obesity is afflicted on to people by others (parents to children through bad diet and lifestyle usually). This needs tackling too. Or do you enjoy the odd convenience meal/fish supper, so that's OK and you don't mind?
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Originally Posted by clarie

How about instead of making snidy comments you address the debate itself?

As said above, those factors have an impact on our lifestyles, but so what? It's not relevant to this debate, it doesn't take away from the danger of smoking and above all, we cannot address them all in one fell swoop.

The whole point of this thread is to address whether or not people should be allowed to smoke in enclosed public places, because of the effects of passive smoking. Issues such as obesity and stress do not directly affect the health of others.

See my reply to Chris. I can't be **** to reply to you anymore.

[etccarmageddon]

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with some real stats relating to deaths caused by alchohol and deaths by smoking. The only think I could find this morning was '1 bar worker dies per week from passive smoking' and '85k people die a year from smoking related illnesses'.
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I assume we all agree that smoking in front of children isn't acceptable?

[clarie]

Deaths caused by smoking

One in two long-term smokers will die prematurely as a result of smoking †“ half of these in middle age. The most recent estimates show that around 114,000 people in the UK are killed by smoking every year, accounting for one fifth of all UK deaths.

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact02.html

25,000 people die in the UK each year from alcohol-related illnesses - this is 50 times the annual rate of death from all illicit drugs put together!

http://www.recovery.org.uk/druginfo/index.html

Originally Posted by orangebird

No, it wasn't a cheap shot. Obesity kills. Obesity is afflicted on to people by others (parents to children through bad diet and lifestyle usually). This needs tackling too. Or do you enjoy the odd convenience meal/fish supper, so that's OK and you don't mind?

Of course it was. I have said repeatedly over the past couple of days that the affects of alcohol do not in any way detract from the affects of tobacco smoke, and what is under discussion here is whether we should clamp down on smoking tobacco. To imply that the people who are merely sticking to the subject are the ones pursuing an agenda or skewing the discussion is perverse.

If you want to start a campaign for alcohol awareness, obesity awareness, drug abuse or whatever, then please do. If you want to start threads on any or all of the above, be my guest. I expect I will fully support what you have to say. But *none* of it will in any way diminish the danger of tobacco smoke, and the only issue under discussion here is what should be done about tobacco smoking.

Why is every life threatening illness, disease, addiction etc being thrown into the pot here?

Obesity is bad. Those that promote obesity - parents, manufacturers, caters etc - are to be derided. But what the flippin' 'eck Tucker has this got to do with smoking which impacts not just on those that enjoy it. Alcohol etc etc etc. There are lots of health issues out there. This is one of them

You lot be crazy folks. Chill.
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And go easy on ChrisT. Scotland has the highest heart disease and crime rates in the UK. And, speaking from very recent personal experience, the worst weather (yeah, I know yesterday was the hottest Scottish October day ever, ever - but we were leaving then.)

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Of course it was. I have said repeatedly over the past couple of days that the affects of alcohol do not in any way detract from the affects of tobacco smoke, and what is under discussion here is whether we should clamp down on smoking tobacco. To imply that the people who are merely sticking to the subject are the ones pursuing an agenda or skewing the discussion is perverse.

If you want to start a campaign for alcohol awareness, obesity awareness, drug abuse or whatever, then please do. If you want to start threads on any or all of the above, be my guest. I expect I will fully support what you have to say. But *none* of it will in any way diminish the danger of tobacco smoke, and the only issue under discussion here is what should be done about tobacco smoking.

But as I have said in a previous post smoking cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors because they are linked. If this is not true then why is it that smoking rates among those most disadvantaged have not declined.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

But as I have said in a previous post smoking cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors because they are linked.

Yes it can. We work on one factor, later we work on another.

Please remember that this debate is about passive smoking anyway. And that is easy to resolve. Stop smoking in public places. Job done.

Originally Posted by SlackDad

But as I have said in a previous post smoking cannot be dealt with in isolation from other factors because they are linked. If this is not true then why is it that smoking rates among those most disadvantaged have not declined.

Poverty is no doubt the biggest killer. But the issue with smoking, for me, is the impact it can have on others, not on the individual partaking. It may be just one in a range of life limiting factors but it is one we know about and can relatively easily address, in terms of passive smoking. We can and should be doing something about it on that basis. Addressing poverty and disadvantage is a far biggger issue but one I'm happy to join you in fighting.

Originally Posted by andyl

And go easy on ChrisT. Scotland has the highest heart disease and crime rates in the UK. And, speaking from very recent personal experience, the worst weather (yeah, I know yesterday was the hottest Scottish October day ever, ever - but we were leaving then.)

The West of Scotland in particular is very bad. In fact, Glasgow is the heart disease capital of Europe. Did you come to our great city or were you over in poncey Edinburgh?

You should have dropped in for tea.

You can understand why things are so bad here when you see so many people queueing to buy fish and chips just to eat for their regular lunch during the week. I buy fish and chips once in a blue moon because I know what regular substance abuse (in this case cholesterol and saturated fat!) can do to my bod.

There is no doubt that this is a big factor in Glasgow's heart disease problem. There is, furthermore, no doubt that smoking is a big factor (a higher proportion of the population smokes in this part of the country than in the UK as a whole).

@Slackdad also ... you can see from the above, I'm not ignorant about the integrated nature of these problems. But I don't consider that to be a reason to do nothing about any one part of the problem. In fact, you see health awareness public information films on TV in Scotland far more than you do in England.

But as I've said before, it's a matter of degrees - the research and the statistics say that smoking is the major component of the problem, and it's therefore logical, given that it is such a big problem, that it is tackled with extreme measures. I for one am delighted that the Scottish Executive has decided not to tiptoe around this issue and will be introducing a complete blanket ban from next April. I am looking forward to being able to go to cafes (I don't get out to pubs much at the mo) with my young children and not to have to worry about which way the smoke is drifting. At last, the perverse concept of smoking and non-smoking sections will be banished forever.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Chris T

I for one am delighted that the Scottish Executive has decided not to tiptoe around this issue and will be introducing a complete blanket ban from next April. I am looking forward to being able to go to cafes (I don't get out to pubs much at the mo) with my young children and not to have to worry about which way the smoke is drifting. At last, the perverse concept of smoking and non-smoking sections will be banished forever.

Oh lucky you!

I remember once going to a Little Chef, back in the day when I was a smoker. I ate breakfast with my friends, and then went to the smoking area to have a cigarette. Which was literally the table next door, with a little separation wall (you know the type that's about 30cm higher than the table.

I cringe with the memory.