[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

David Cameron is in talks in Brussels over a deal to allow Britain to curb in-work benefits for migrants - with the permission of other EU nations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35434125

The current idea would be that Britain could initiate a request for this emergency brake for up to four years if it could prove Britain's social and welfare system is under excessive strain from immigration.

But that brake would have to be approved by the majority of other EU member states - and of course, right from the beginning, they have been opposed to suspending benefits for other EU migrants.

With the permission of other EU nations? Oh right, I can see how that's likely to work very well.

Someone once said that a camel is just a horse designed by committee...

[Osem]

The president of the European Council says "good progress" has been made on David Cameron's reform demands as he prepares to publish a "new settlement" on the UK's EU membership.

Donald Tusk said he would put forward the draft text on Tuesday but warned "outstanding issues" remained.

UK and EU officials have been trying to reach an agreement that will pave the way for the UK's EU referendum.

EU leaders will debate the proposals at a summit on 18 and 19 February.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35456633

All so much Euro-hot air I reckon. I can't see Cameron squeezing anything meaningful out of these people (even if he really wants to) and whatever they may promise I have a nasty feeling will never actually materialise. What mechanism is there, if any, for the UK to have another referendum should promises be reneged upon I wonder...

[heero_yuy]

Without a proper treaty change to enshrine them the EU promises are just that and can be reneged upon at any time or indeed given away by UK governments in persuit of personal gains of the PM at the time. See EU rebate.

So what we seem to have is:

- The ability to veto EU laws
- No in-work benefits for EU migrants for a certain number of years.

Originally Posted by Damien

So what we seem to have is:

- The ability to veto EU laws
- No in-work benefits for EU migrants for a certain number of years.

- None of which is to be guaranteed by treaty
- And in any case, does not answer the fundamental reason for euroscepticism, which is the erosion of Parliamentary sovereignty.

Originally Posted by Chris

- None of which is to be guaranteed by treaty
- And in any case, does not answer the fundamental reason for euroscepticism, which is the erosion of Parliamentary sovereignty.

I think these things were never likely to be addressed by the deal which we all probably agree has a big element of theater about it. The question is if Cameron has done enough for this not be written off a failure in the eyes of the neutrals. If he can come back and say we can veto EU laws and stop giving benefits to migrants that would help him I think. The EU will probably chuck in the nonsense line about us being exempt from joining any 'ever-closer' Union which would purely be cosmetic but crowd-pleasing.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think these things were never likely to be addressed by the deal which we all probably agree has a big element of theater about it. The question is if Cameron has done enough for this not be written off a failure in the eyes of the neutrals. If he can come back and say we can veto EU laws and stop giving benefits to migrants that would help him I think. The EU will probably chuck in the nonsense line about us being exempt from joining any 'ever-closer' Union which would purely be cosmetic but crowd-pleasing.

Trouble is there is no veto. Cameron can only have his way if 55% of the rest of the EU agree. And as stated above if it's not bound by treaty then it's not worth diddly squat. Just a load of hot air.

[Taf]

Cameron doesn't want us out of the EU because his bosses, those who own and run industry, don't want us out of the EU. And any referendum is going to be a loaded question backed by mass propaganda paid for by bosses of industry. I doubt very much that the question will be a simple "in or out" one.

[Osem]

Whilst clamping down on in work benefits would be welcome, I don't see it stopping large scale EU migration. It's far easier to work and live under the radar in the UK than many EU countries and the draw factor will be a function of how good/bad things are elsewhere I'd have thought.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Taf

Cameron doesn't want us out of the EU because his bosses, those who own and run industry, don't want us out of the EU. And any referendum is going to be a loaded question backed by mass propaganda paid for by bosses of industry. I doubt very much that the question will be a simple "in or out" one.

The question has to pass muster with the Electoral Commission:

he Electoral Commission is an independent body set up by the UK Parliament. Our aim is integrity and public confidence in the UK’s democratic process. We regulate party and election finance, set standards for well-run elections and are responsible for the conduct and regulations of referendums held under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act (2000).

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk

At least the question can't be rigged, as for the rest....

The 'red card' is a Veto for a majority of national parliaments.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Er, didn't we have elections in May 2014? And also every 5 years previously since the European Parliament was formed since 1979? The people we voted for in those elections are responsible for passing laws along with the Council of the European Union who are directly appointed by the Governments of the union.

I fail to see how people think of this being an undemocratic institution but maybe someone can name a part of the EU that we don't have some kind of say.

I don't recall voting for any of those in power in the EU

It's out:

- No EU benefit ban. Instead they're 'graduated in'.
- National parliaments can veto laws from the EU if 55% vote no.
- Government can ban EU Citizens from the country if they pose a threat.

Not amazing really. Apparently these pledges will be legally binding.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's out:

You've seen sense then...

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

...and I can't see any cosy deals being done or undue pressure applied to smaller nations where the 55% threshold looks like being reached...

[Mr K]

'Emergency Brakes', 'Red Cards' - this all sounds excellent and very sexy !

Well done Dave !