Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[TehTech]

Alexander: Was that you at the front on the panel with 2 others?

[CaptJamieHunter]

Originally Posted by manxminx

Craig, I really think we need to wait until we see the whole recording of last nights meeting before passing judgement. Also, the media are well known to 'selective quote'. I somehow doubt that the snipit of the interview CH4 showed is representative of SD's views.

I'm just working on converting the video I took and uploading it. Could be a while though (the laptop's a bit slow). I have all bar the first word or so of Simon's introduction, Kent's presentation, Richard's presentation, most of Richard's Q&A and Alexander's speech. The first words are missing purely because I had to change batteries between each presentation. And I had only one set of batteries for Alexander and Mark Burgess. Alexander won out.

My own thoughts will also be detailed in that posting. I'm off to make a large pot of tea - see you good folk in a bit.

[OF1975]

Also to those criticising Simon Davies I disagree. So far we have only seen a short snipit and should wait till we see the full footage. Lets give the man a fair chance. His past work in this arena surely earn him that?

To 80/20 thinking and Phorm, however, I strongly suggest that they try their damndest to get the full footage put up ASAP though. They lost a bit of goodwill by not finding a way to stream it live and if we are left waiting for more than another 24 hours for it then I think they are out of order.

[bigboab5]

Originally Posted by fidbod

About 2 minutes 50 into the clip

Gotcha!!! Don't ya look studious!!

Boab

[kt88man]

Originally Posted by OF1975

... I just know from my chats with american friends that they just dont seem that interested in any of this even when I tell them all about it and warn them that it IS on its way over there...

I have a few English friends like that as well... unsure if it's apathy, lack of knowledge, or, genuinely don't care...

"I'm not bothered, they'll only lose the data anyway" was the comment from one...

[OldBear]

First off, a big thanks to Alexander for all his work on this and for his great effort last night.

Originally Posted by Pasanonic

I appreciate That Alex is upset that some people have seemed disrespectful to Mr Davies and I hope I was not one of them as that was not my intention. but his ( SD) statements last night dismissing any talk of legality for the DPI system smacked to me of a whitewash and they should have arranged for legal counsel to be there as the legalities are the whole issue here.
However I thought,'benefit of the doubt'.
That was until I saw Mr Davies on the Channel 4 item today. It is clear from his comments given to 4 that he is clearly not an independent person working to produce just a PIA but was quite clear in his words that he is a supporter of the phorm system and is working to see that it is implemented for commercial gain. He did not appear in my view to be anything like the independent he keeps claiming to be.

So regardless of his work in the past with respect to 80/20 Thinking I personally shall be accepting that any further statements from them are to be treated as positive spin from a company with a vested interest in moving this technology into the mainstream.

Craig.

I have to totally agree with this. Like everyone else here I admire Mr Davies for the work he has done in the past, but I just cannot see how he can support what Phorm/Webwise plan to do with our data. It should be remembered that with his PI hat on he did once say of the Google/Doubleclick deal on the PI site here: http://www.privacyinternational.org/...D=x-347-560886

Privacy International today expressed dismay and disbelief at the EC's unconditional approval of the Google-Doubleclick merger. PI's Director, Simon Davies, said "This single reprehensible action by the Commission represents this decade's greatest threat to online privacy. The EU will rue the day that it allowed a near monopoly market to be controlled by this company. Online privacy will now be a hostage to fortune, inevitably suffering death from a thousand cuts".

I'm not too sure about how to read Mr Davies' comments where Phorm/Webwise are concerned. Since he does post here, perhaps he would tell us the difference between the two systems as he sees it.

OB

btw. This is not flamebait, so don't flame me. As previously stated I am a great admirer of Mr Davies previous work; it's just that something just doesn't 'ring true' for me.

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by OF1975

Also to those criticising Simon Davies I disagree. So far we have only seen a short snipit and should wait till we see the full footage. Lets give the man a fair chance. His past work in this arena surely earn him that?

To 80/20 thinking and Phorm, however, I strongly suggest that they try their damndest to get the full footage put up ASAP though. They lost a bit of goodwill by not finding a way to stream it live and if we are left waiting for more than another 24 hours for it then I think they are out of order.

As I made clear. I was speaking of my opinion based on the facts as they were presented to me in the channel 4 news item. The interview with Simon shown at the end did nothing to allay my fears that 80/20 thinking have a vested interest in the project and are working to ensure it is implemented.
You will see no more of that interview so there is nothing to wait for.

Simon himself was the one to bring up his hat juggling skills and all I am saying is that I have come to the conclusion that whilst he is wearing his 80/20 thinking cap I can't trust his comments to be other than self-serving.
I don't feel this is a criticism of him, I've said all along that I could never see him being allowed to be openly critical of the proposals being that he is employed to help move the implementation forward. If he worked for me I'd be sure he was towing my party line regardless of whatever that line might be. He's doing his job and I have no issue with that.

I do think that C4 were more critical than I could ever be. When someone adds a caveat to an item along the lines of. here is "XXX" and we must make it clear he is in the pay of "XXX" it is an old ploy that is meant to convey to the viewer " hey, listen to this guy but be fully aware of where he is coming from and who is paying his wages."

I'd sit down with Simon all day and discuss privacy issues. The man is a colossus in this field. At the risk of repeating myself I am simply dismissing 80/20 Thinking as anyone who can add anything to the debate but more positive spin on behalf of Phorm because that is the job they are employed to do.

I do hope Simon is not insulted by any of this, I really am saying the guy is just doing his job and well he should do once he has taken it on.

[manxminx]

Those comments, made to channel 4 in a separate interview will be all we get to see. Try as I might I can't see how his obvious support in that interview could have been taken out of the context of a larger conversation saying the opposite.
Channel 4 even made it clear before showing his piece that 80/20 was in the payroll of Phorm.

I've reread Alexanders post located at
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post3563.html

I've also reviewed the Ch4 news interview with SD.

I have to admit, I'm rather puzzled. The SD (and the attitudes of whom) Alexander describes in his post, does not appear to be in accord with that of the CH4 interview.

I wonder if Alexander could shed some light on this? Exactly whose side is SD on?

[JackSon]

Originally Posted by Pasanonic

Those comments, made to channel 4 in a separate interview will be all we get to see. Try as I might I can't see how his obvious support in that interview could have been taken out of the context of a larger conversation saying the opposite.
Channel 4 even made it clear before showing his piece that 80/20 was in the payroll of Phorm.

Am not as upset by Simon's stance. We all know his company is hired by Phorm so that is not a revelation and with the CV's of everone in 8020 I don't think it is fair to jump to a conlusion of them just being hired goons to do as they are told.
Yes Simon did seem happy for Phorm to go ahead, but (and I think it is a relevant but) he did state (even on that video clip) that he see a way in which Phorm could be deployed. That does not mean that he (or 8020) approved of Phorm going ahead in its current state; only that there was a method of having the system available and working within all of mentioned legal/ethical constraints.

If you look at 8020's main statement on their website, you'll read that they advertise themselves as being consultants to guide a company and make it aware of its responsibilities and to make it comply with what is ethical and legal in terms of privacy etc. In a way that's a brilliant thing, as they are working on the inside of Phorm to help shape it into a more acceptable product, and the company is getting paid in the process.

Personally, I can't really think of any more capable hands I would rather be at the wheel of steering Phorm into the seas of acceptability to the ISP's customers than Simon et al's (except maybe Alexanders ) - it's the best thing we have to having someone working on the inside.

Best case scenario is of course, the ISP's say "actually, forget all of this Phorm idea". But the more likely one is perhaps that Phrom will change to a more acceptable Opt-in (where non opt-ins dont touch any kit of Phorms period), and I think that stands better chances of happening with 8020 in their ear.

Obviously it is wrong for me, or anyone else to say your opinions or interpertations are wrong - I just felt the need to offer mine in contrast

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by JackSon

Am not as upset by Simon's stance. We all know his company is hired by Phorm so that is not a revelation and with the CV's of everone in 8020 I don't think it is fair to jump to a conlusion of them just being hired goons to do as they are told.
Yes Simon did seem happy for Phorm to go ahead, but (and I think it is a relevant but) he did state (even on that video clip) that he see a way in which Phorm could be deployed. That does not mean that he (or 8020) approved of Phorm going ahead in its current state; only that there was a method of having the system available and working within all of mentioned legal/ethical constraints.

If you look at 8020's main statement on their website, you'll read that they advertise themselves as being consultants to guide a company and make it aware of its responsibilities and to make it comply with what is ethical and legaa in terms of privacy etc. In a way that's a brilliant thing, as they are working on the inside of Phrom to help shape it into a more acceptable product, and the company is getting paid in the process.

Personally, I can't really think of any more capable hands I would rather be at the wheel of steering Phorm into the seas of acceptability to the ISP's customers than Simon et al's (except maybe Alexanders ) - it's the best thing we have to having someone working on the inside.

Best case scenario is of course, the ISP's say "actually, forget all of this Phorm idea". But the more likely one is perhaps that Phrom will change to a more acceptable Opt-in (where non opt-ins dont touch any kit of Phorms period), and I think that stands better changes of happening with 8020 in their ear.

Obviously it is wrong for me, or anyone else to say your opinions or interpertations are wrong - I just felt the need to offer mine in contrast

I accept your opinions too and understand fully how you can come to them.
I hope I made clear in my previous post that I'm not upset. I'm not even surprised. I'm just not going to accept the views of 80/20 without careful consideration just because the man in charge has a good track record. It is a commercial venture after all and I know more than enough about this having run my own companies for the last 20 years.

[manxminx]

We need to see the recording from last night ASAP, as I doubt any truly informed discussion regarding the meeting can take place until we do.

Please Simon & 80/20, get the video out into the public domain ASAP.

[Kursk]

Might be time to stop all the back-slapping (no disrespect Alex, you put on a great show) but last night was an achievement not a victory. And imho it still leaves us on the bottom rung. Remember this meeting was courtesy of 'Phorm Productions' even if they didn't fare that well, they have still managed to get the focus around their agenda, their PIA.

I don't want Phorm opt-out or opt-in and I won't see achieving opt-in as a success. Where the hell is the UK Government? When will it support its citizens? This mess is a long way from over.

Simon - we await your reaction to last night with great interest. It's somewhat concerning to hear the last few words of your statement..."and Companies can still make money". What a sell out.

[CaptJamieHunter]

Originally Posted by manxminx

We need to see the recording from last night ASAP, as I doubt any truly informed discussion regarding the meeting can take place until we do.

Please Simon & 80/20, get the video out into the public domain ASAP.

As soon as my uploads are done I'll post links here. Something to get discussion on last night's presentations if nothing else.

[OF1975]

Panasonic I think I can both understand and respect where you are coming from with regards to Simon Davies (I originally accused Simon of a conflict of interest in the register comments about a month ago or however long ago it was - a view I now consider to maybe be incorrect but thats to digress) but I just personally think it would be harsh to judge Simons involvement with Phorm on a 10 second clip in the channel 4 news coverage.

My opinion is that when we get to see the full footage of what transpired at the meeting then we will be much better informed to make those kind of judgements.

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Might be time to stop all the back-slapping (no disrespect Alex, you put on a great show) but last night was an achievement not a victory. And imho it still leaves us on the bottom rung. Remember this meeting was courtesy of 'Phorm Productions' even if they didn't fare that well, they have still managed to get the focus around their agenda, their PIA.

I don't want Phorm opt-out or opt-in and I won't see achieving opt-in as a success. Where the hell is the UK Government? When will it support its citizens? This mess is a long way from over.

Simon - we await your reaction to last night with great interest.

as a loose opposition group we are still in limbo as to what can be done.
We have no legal opposition to make asVirgin customers. We actually have nothing to complain about other than the fact Virgin say they are looking to maybe use this system.
We have exhausted the debate up to now and until we read more of last night for us to take issue with I doubt there is more to be said.

I'm really not interested in fighting a legal battle on behalf of BT users who's rights might have been compromised. I am however interested into pressuring the Home Office to get some balls and start investigation this technology and it's previous use from a technical point of view with relation the the law of tha land they are sworn to uphold.

I might be writing to a few national newspapers enquiring into the price of a full page advert to create a piece designed to bring this issue to the general public. This would of course have to be extremely carefully worded and only give statements of fact and link resources so that people may choose to make their own minds up about it. I'm pretty sure that would be a go unless the ad departments of the nationals saw a conflict with current partners and chose not to be involved.

I am also considering writing to Michael Moore ( bowling for Columbine ) after all, his country is next on the list. Yet I'm unsure if having him investigate it might not ultimately be a hindrance given his somewhat over-zealous approach.