Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

I beg to differ.

First you came out with nonsense that somehow Nigel Farage, influenced every single Leave voter, hours later, it is now changed to Russian money. Make your mind up springs to mind.

Leave won - Remain lost - it is called Democracy.

Wait until April and I think you’ll view who won and lost differently.

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yawn.

Why do you and others traipse this out.

The queen has no executive power, and any perceived executive power is only symbolic.

The Lords only provide oversight - I would hapilly see Reform of the second chamber, I would not see it elected though. I would rather that people apply and are selected from a representative portion of society.

We elect parties based on policy, not individuals based on how nice they are , the party in power can elect their leader

The nation had a referendum in 2011, yes that’s right a referendum. The nation voted no to PR, is that another referendum you want to ignore and overturn?

Facts inconvenient for you?

I am stunned.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

If the electorate accept the May deal as Brexit it will only confirm what many suspected.

The electorate don’t get a chance to accept or reject it. We won’t know because there won’t be referendum on it.

If the electorate do seem to not like it, then political parties can stand on a ticket to scrap the deal at the next election. If they win then we’ll know.

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:00 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Facts inconvenient for you?

I am stunned.

Your point is, in reference to that post?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The electorate don’t get a chance to accept or reject it. We won’t know because there won’t be referendum on it.

If the electorate do seem to not like it, then political parties can stand on a ticket to scrap the deal at the next election. If they win then we’ll know.

There will be a referendum but the question is whether May’s deal makes it as far as the ballot paper.

As you say though, in the highly unlikely event it passes the Tories will pay the price at the next election. Unless people are satisfied because of the reasons I stated previously. Xenophobia and racism.

It isn’t taking back control, and it’s paying £39bn for the privilege.

[djfunkdup]

Originally Posted by jfman

There will be a referendum

[jfman]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Keep believing that.

I look forward to being proven wrong. People on your own side of the debate believe the May deal is a stitch up by Olly Robbins.

Why is giving the public an opportunity to vote again a step too far if you believe it’s essentially an act of sabotage?

One big advantage of May's deal: This will be over sooner.

Everyone is only against it because they want to roll the dice again. Brexiters in the Tory Party want a hard Brexit, and a shot at being PM if you're Boris, Remain want another referendum whilst Labour want an election. All these groups are willing to risk a crash in the hope they grab power in the resulting chaos.

If you supported Brexit you get control over immigration and largely free of the ECJ. If you supported Remain this at least limits some of the economic damage.

---------- Post added at 21:23 ---------- Previous post was at 21:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

Sigh - Anybody could bloody get a better deal than what's on offer.

They probably could not which is why none of them seem to have any suggestions into how. Boris and co keep saying it will be easy, David Davies said the trade deal would be the easiest in history but these geniuses seemed to keep the secret plan to themselves whilst they were Foreign and Brexit Sectaries. Corbyn's grand plan seems to be to ask nicely as far as I can tell.

All of them can talk but none of them seem to say anything or stick around. All they agree on is that if they were Prime Minster all would be well.

[jfman]

Corbyn’s plan is to win an election, ask nicely, be told no, postpone, go for a 2nd referendum and this has the benefit that he doesn’t have to worry about re-election until 2024.

By 2024 he will be judged on his years in Government. If his socialist paradise lifts people out of poverty and puts people into jobs that pay then Brexit is resigned to a footnote in history that was a spat between public schoolboys that went far too far. He gets to use the line he gave people an informed choice and the Tories squandered two years because there was never really an alternative anyway.

Playing politics at its best.

Originally Posted by jfman

There will be a referendum but the question is whether May’s deal makes it as far as the ballot paper.

As you say though, in the highly unlikely event it passes the Tories will pay the price at the next election. Unless people are satisfied because of the reasons I stated previously. Xenophobia and racism.

It isn’t taking back control, and it’s paying £39bn for the privilege.

And when you lose yet another referendum, will you want another one, just to be sure, or is it the best of 5 FFS?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Corbyn’s plan is to win an election, ask nicely, be told no, postpone, go for a 2nd referendum and this has the benefit that he doesn’t have to worry about re-election until 2024.

By 2024 he will be judged on his years in Government. If his socialist paradise lifts people out of poverty and puts people into jobs that pay then Brexit is resigned to a footnote in history that was a spat between public schoolboys that went far too far. He gets to use the line he gave people an informed choice and the Tories squandered two years because there was never really an alternative anyway.

Playing politics at its best.

Jesus, you shouldn’t be smoking that on a Tuesday . No go off and have a pint of Anti-freeze.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

And when you lose yet another referendum, will you want another one, just to be sure, or is it the best of 5 FFS?

I personally don’t mind either way, as I said before I did vote to remain. I couldn’t say how I’d vote now. I’d possibly back the May deal, because it isn’t really Brexit at all.

I’m not saying I think there should be a second referendum. I’m saying how I see this playing out with a lame duck remainer PM and remainer Parliament. If you think there’s not frantic planning for remaining but blaming someone else for it I think that’s ignoring political reality.

It’d be much harder politically to go best of five. It’d be very difficult to argue a second referendum would have an ill-informed electorate after two and a half years of this.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I personally don’t mind either way, as I said before I did vote to remain. I couldn’t say how I’d vote now. I’d possibly back the May deal, because it isn’t really Brexit at all.

I’m not saying I think there should be a second referendum. I’m saying how I see this playing out with a lame duck remainer PM and remainer Parliament. If you think there’s not frantic planning for remaining but blaming someone else for it I think that’s ignoring political reality.

It’d be much harder politically to go best of five. It’d be very difficult to argue a second referendum would have an ill-informed electorate after two and a half years of this.

If this deal goes through, and if it doesn’t deliver on the Brexit imagined by the electorate that voted for it, and if the electorate think thT they have been shafted by the U.K. establishment and the EU, then you will quickly see a resurgence in the likes of UKIP or another party, and opportunistic politicians and we’ll be back where we were pre-2016.

The public won’t be fooled.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Jesus, you shouldn’t be smoking that on a Tuesday . No go off and have a pint of Anti-freeze.

You’ve not followed politics long have you?

So many broken promises I’ve lost count. This will be bold, but it’s definitely workable.

If this wasn’t realistic JRM wouldn’t be desperately trying to find 47 friends. Why do you think he needs control now? Because he can do a better deal? Of course not.

If no deal Brexit was the only alternative vote down the TM deal, crash out in March, kick her out and start negotiating Super Canada in April. Nothing to stop that happening. What’s the rush?

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

If this deal goes through, and if it doesn’t deliver on the Brexit imagined by the electorate that voted for it, and if the electorate think thT they have been shafted by the U.K. establishment and the EU, then you will quickly see a resurgence in the likes of UKIP or another party, and opportunistic politicians and we’ll be back where we were pre-2016.

The public won’t be fooled.

Resurgence from a party that’s had one, two MPs ever? Remember we don’t like PR.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

You’ve not followed politics long have you?

No just 35 years since my late teens.

Resurgence from a party that’s had one, two MPs ever? Remember we don’t like PR.

You been following politics long?

They managed to force a referendum, with only one, two MPs.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No just 35 years since my late teens.



You been following politics long?

They managed to force a referendum, with only one, two MPs.

I’m sure it was in the Conservative manifesto, voted on by a Conservative Government. The Tories squabbling over Europe goes back to when you started following politics. Cameron sought to end it once and for all.

I note you’ve ignored the JRM question so I extend my invitation to anyone to tell me why he is trying to topple May now? The EU have said the negotiations are over, and you all claim no deal is achievable from the backbenches. Topple her afterwards, she takes the blame for no deal, and negotiate Super Canada. Put the £39bn back on the table to focus the minds of the EU.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m sure it was in the Conservative manifesto, voted on by a Conservative Government.

. Due to obvious pressure from UKIP in strategic conservative seats. Labour also suffered greatly from support for UKIP. Arguably Labour only due so well in the election because the Europe Question had been settled in the referendum. Labour may find themselves impacted if they support remain and fudged Brexit hence no clear Brexit policy from Labour.

I note you’ve ignored the JRM question so I extend my invitation to anyone to tell me why he is trying to topple May now? The EU have said the negotiations are over, and you all claim no deal is achievable from the backbenches. Topple her afterwards, she takes the blame for no deal, and negotiate Super Canada. Put the £39bn back on the table to focus the minds of the EU.

You have been very adept at ignoring questions so I don’t see why you should be so exorcised now.

It’s not difficult. He is obviously trying to get a hard brexiteer in power such as David Davies. Or someone thT is happy to take us out with no deal.

I, and I don’t think anyone else has, suggested another deal is achievable. It’s this deal or no deal. Go fo no deal, see what happens.