[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[ianch99]

At least Boris admits he is lying:

EU referendum: Boris Johnson caught out by Alex Salmond after misquoting report he had never read

Boris Johnson was left flustered on Tuesday after being forced to admit – during a live debate on the EU referendum – that he hadn’t read a Bank of England report he had seconds earlier misquoted.

The blunder became evident after the former Mayor of London claimed during the debate that large movements of labour across the EU “have a compressing effect on wages”.

But Alex Salmond, the former Scottish First Minister who was on the panel arguing the case to Remain in the EU, asked: “Who in the Bank of England said that?”

Mr Johnson replied: “It was a Bank of England study that showed that for every 10 per cent increase in immigration there was a two per cent reduction in wages”.

Mr Salmond, however, continued to interrogate the former London Mayor. He asked: “Have you read that study Boris? Have you actually read it,”

After a short silence, Mr Johnson replied: “I have not read that study”.

Mr Salmond added: “Can we just nail this because I’ve heard this from a number of people. So I’ve taken the trouble of reading the study… it says a 10 per cent rise in immigration would result in a one third of one pence diminution in average wages. One third of one pence."

[ntluser]

I do wonder how people will feel if the UK votes to remain but the other EU leaders do not ratify the deal. This would mean we remain in the EU on exactly the same terms as we do now.

A lot is made of the veto but in some areas one does not apply and can we be certain that David Cameron will actually use it in line with our wishes when he needs to.

Similarly, if we vote to leave will David Cameron actually honour the wishes of the people?

I think the people who vote to remain will feel betrayed if it emerges that:-

a) we are still on track for political union
b) the EU is forming its own army
c) Turkey does have accelerated entry to the EU
d) EU courts still have the final say in our courts
e) the EU continues without self-reform
f) immigration continues at an unchecked rate

I suppose like all these things we will find out the truth once the UK has voted one way or another.

I also wonder what the reaction of the public will be when the truth finally emerges.

Roll on Friday morning!!

Either way I am glad it's going to be over soon. It's been such a horrible campaign and surprisingly hateful.

[denphone]

And sadly there are still some out there who are full of deep hate with threats to kill those who disagree with their views.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...against-family

[ntluser]

Originally Posted by Damien

Either way I am glad it's going to be over soon. It's been such a horrible campaign and surprisingly hateful.

I agree. Never have the public been asked to vote on the skimpiest of evidence from either side.

It comes down to how you perceive the people involved and how you perceive the EU.

The personal attacks and the involvement of Jo Cox's name should never have featured in either campaign.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Damien

Either way I am glad it's going to be over soon. It's been such a horrible campaign and surprisingly hateful.

yes it has. scaremongering, threats of war,emergency punishment budget ,wages going down ,no more trade ,tax hike ,fuel hike and all this if we don't do as dave and gideon tell us to

[Julian]

Originally Posted by denphone

And sadly there are still some out there who are full of deep hate with threats to kill those who disagree with their views.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...against-family

Of course that could be a hoax tweet designed to milk the tragic Jo Cox murder a bit more......

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

So how will we be forced to join if we have a veto? As you said yourself all it takes is one veto and that's scuppered!

J

Part of the Maastricht Treaty was that we didn't sign up for the Working Time Directives. Look how that turned out, we had it imposed on us by the backdoor using Health and Safety directives instead.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Part of the Maastricht Treaty was that we didn't sign up for the Working Time Directives. Look how that turned out, we had it imposed on us by the backdoor using Health and Safety directives instead.

It's the only reason we seem to get "concessions" "vetos"and "red lines" is when the EU meisters know they can force whatever it is on us another way. Just look how we had to cough up a bailout for Greece despite not being in the Euro.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

yes it has. scaremongering, threats of war,emergency punishment budget ,wages going down ,no more trade ,tax hike ,fuel hike and all this if we don't do as dave and gideon tell us to

Lost count of the number of times Cameron referred to damaging/tanking our economy, hurting family finances etc. this morning on Radio 4 with John Humphrys. No matter what the question asked the same old script was repeated ad nauseam. Pretty pathetic scare tactics really. If they thought they could get away with saying the moon will suddenly collide with Earth as a result of Brexit they would do.

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

Part of the Maastricht Treaty was that we didn't sign up for the Working Time Directives. Look how that turned out, we had it imposed on us by the backdoor using Health and Safety directives instead.

Yet there are still those who believe all the clap trap about vetos, special treatment blah blah blah. If we stay in it's as certain the night follows day that whatever special status we have will be gradually eroded. Some people still don't get that the EU has always been heading in one direction and there's nothing we can do to stop it - the only thing we can do to avoid that is get out, there is no compromise. We either take this opportunity or resign ourselves to the slippery slope towards a single European state/single currency and rule by the Eurocrats in Brussels. Why anyone would want that I have no idea because at least we have the ability to get shot of our Govt. every few years. Try getting rid of those running the show in the EU...

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It's the only reason we seem to get "concessions" "vetos"and "red lines" is when the EU meisters know they can force whatever it is on us another way. Just look how we had to cough up a bailout for Greece despite not being in the Euro.

Yes, it's not like they don't have any previous is it. The tough talk and so called 'concessions' invariably don't last long. How much more evidence do some people need in order to see these people for what they are?

Voting to erode the value/power of your vote is quite the most bizarre thing I can think of yet plenty of people are going to do just that.

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

None of those things have happened,

if the government were going to force us into a single currency they have had plenty of opportunities so why haven't they done so before what's changed that they are suddenly going to do so.

Closer political ties and cooperation does not make a super state.

Distrust in the government and beleiving that they are going to act against the will of the people will not change with leaving the EU.

Whats to stop the government signing away our rights to border control I exchange for access to the single market if we did leave if they are so dishonest.

J

You cleverly omitted the word EVER.

The EU is committed to EVER closer union - it's their raison d'etre and I'm sorry but that does mean a super state - a single European state. Michael Heseltine confirmed it as recently as yesterday and even the EU doesn't seek to hide it. If you still don't believe that's not the plan then why has Cameron been telling us all he's negotiated our opt out from it?

No there's nothing to stop our govt. doing anything if they lie well enough and given the weasel words and lies we've been exposed to I wouldn't rule it out. At least however by not being part of the Brussels project we can remove our govt. when election time comes. Try getting 27 other nations (or even a majority thereof) to agree to doing something we want but they don't. The EU is set up in such a way that getting anything done takes years because, surprise, surprise, different nations have competing interests and very different views as to what's right for them. All that does is facilitate the status quo, it certainly does not facilitate reform or even a rapid response to a major migration crisis. Just look at how badly the EU has handled that! We've been trying to reform the EU for 40 years and look where that's got us...

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Part of the Maastricht Treaty was that we didn't sign up for the Working Time Directives. Look how that turned out, we had it imposed on us by the backdoor using Health and Safety directives instead.

Sure it wasn't signed up to by the Blair government shortly after coming to power in 1997 and became law in 1998?

A quick Google points out that the UK was criticised and threatened with sanction for not implementing it fully but we were not compelled to implement it at all from what I can gather, voluntary choice by the government of the day.

My only real objection to this is that it's a government binding subsequent ones via the EU. Giving up the opt-out is, according to treaties, etc, irrevocable.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

You can't leave it at that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsVV3fpVNKI

Phil/Thunderf00t handing Sargon his hindmost throughout this. I rather like his style. The arguments Sargon is using are the same ones many on this side use.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Julian

Of course that could be a hoax tweet designed to milk the tragic Jo Cox murder a bit more......

You are always gonna get that.

[jamiefrost]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Part of the Maastricht Treaty was that we didn't sign up for the Working Time Directives. Look how that turned out, we had it imposed on us by the backdoor using Health and Safety directives instead.

That would be the working time directive that you can opt out of so you can work more than 48 hours per week if you want too.

J

[Big Brian]

Yet there are still those who believe all the clap trap about vetos, special treatment blah blah blah. If we stay in it's as certain the night follows day that whatever special status we have will be gradually eroded. Some people still don't get that the EU has always been heading in one direction and there's nothing we can do to stop it - the only thing we can do to avoid that is get out, there is no compromise. We either take this opportunity or resign ourselves to the slippery slope towards a single European state/single currency and rule by the Eurocrats in Brussels. Why anyone would want that I have no idea because at least we have the ability to get shot of our Govt. every few years. Try getting rid of those running the show in the EU...

Indeed and what is more worrying is if we remain the EU can tear up that so-called agreement with Cameron. I believe it's discussed next month, how convenient, and it only takes one to say NO. We'll have gone through all this for nothing and came off worse.

[papa smurf]

'When's he going to stop fibbing?' Brexit campaigner calls out PM over 'bullying' campaign

"He's got a track record of saying one thing, in the full knowledge that he can't or won't deliver. When's he going to stop fibbing to the British people?"

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/682...-David-Cameron