BNP loses seats

Originally Posted by Defiant

Okay you have nothing to hide and your not a criminal then so what possible harm would it cause you!

I am currently a free, independent person who has the right, should I choose, to live a life in which I need carry no personally identifying material; nor any material that a police officer can demand I produce in order to prove who I am. I could move to Sutherland and farm a croft, with no bank account, no pension, no car, no nothing, if I choose.

If an ID card were introduced, the state gains the right to require me to identify myself to one of its representatives, should they have reason. Thus, a liberty that I currently have is removed. Hence 'infringement of civil liberty.'

We can argue about whether this loss is justified given the current circumstances, but the 'loss of civil liberty' is self evident.

Originally Posted by towny

Defiant used the immortal phrase 'those who have done no wrong...' in the next post you agreed with him and observed that people who complain their civil liberties were being infringed seem to be criminals.

I was generally having a go at the notion that you can only object to ID cards if you are a criminal (which is what you said) or have done something wrong (which is what Defiant said, and how I began my post).

My apologies if I have entirely misunderstood you or appear to have victimised you ... praps you could clarify, do you think it is possible for a law-abiding citizen of the UK to have honest. well founded objections to having an ID card (whether you agree with their objections or not)?

Would law-abiding citizens of the UK have objections to them knowing its sorting out the people who are not. I doubt their will be that many

[Nor]

Originally Posted by towny

Defiant used the immortal phrase 'those who have done no wrong...' in the next post you agreed with him and observed that people who complain their civil liberties were being infringed seem to be criminals.

I was generally having a go at the notion that you can only object to ID cards if you are a criminal (which is what you said) or have done something wrong (which is what Defiant said, and how I began my post).

My apologies if I have entirely misunderstood you or appear to have victimised you ... praps you could clarify, do you think it is possible for a law-abiding citizen of the UK to have honest. well founded objections to having an ID card (whether you agree with their objections or not)?

hmm, you seem to have something against me I'm afraid, probably stems back from previous unrelated discussions. You'll no doubt say its a figment of my imagination but its pretty evident to me and for the life of me I do not understand it.

I've never said the only people who have a go at ID cards are criminals. But you've decided to lump me in with that group who do (whoever they are) to make a point, so fair enough.

My point was simply that when we hear about civil liberty infringements it always seems to be criminals who are complaining about it, or its been raised on their behalf. I was just trying to temper the debate by saying that there are people who are scared to go out at night, people who are petrified to walk past a group of kids hanging round shops. These peoples civil liberties and rights never seem to be raised. Yet people can sue folk they've burgled for infringing their civil rights.

Originally Posted by Nor

hmm, you seem to have something against me I'm afraid, probably stems back from previous unrelated discussions. You'll no doubt say its a figment of my imagination but its pretty evident to me and for the life of me I do not understand it.

I've never said the only people who have a go at ID cards are criminals. But you've decided to lump me in with that group who do (whoever they are) to make a point, so fair enough.

I don't understand it either ... I can honestly say I don't believe I 'have something against you'. There are folks on this forum with whom I've had almost violent disagreements with in the past and I don't believe my subsequent discussions with them have been coloured by that. In your case I can't even remember having a heated debate with you before.

As for your point, as I posted earlier, I thought it possible I had completely misunderstood your post by assuming it was an agreement with and a continuation of what defiant had said. It appears that this is the case, and as I said, I apologise for that.

Originally Posted by Defiant

Would law-abiding citizens of the UK have objections to them knowing its sorting out the people who are not. I doubt their will be that many

I think your doubts are based on your own prejudice rather than on any facts. Numerous attempts to introduce ID cards in the UK have failed due to public opposition. Unless you are suggesting that the majority of the public are not law abiding, your doubts are wrong.

Originally Posted by towny

I think your doubts are based on your own prejudice rather than on any facts. Numerous attempts to introduce ID cards in the UK have failed due to public opposition. Unless you are suggesting that the majority of the public are not law abiding, your doubts are wrong.

No I'm a law abiding British citizen with nothing to hide and don't know of any of my friends or family who have. Therefore I don’t see them objecting to something that will help track people that do. I think its pretty stupid to object to something that will

Originally Posted by Defiant

No I'm a law abiding British citizen with nothing to hide and don't know of any of my friends or family who have. Therefore I donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see them objecting to something that will help track people that do. I think its pretty stupid to object to something that will

If the extent of your argument is 'I think it's pretty stupid to object' then that kind of proves my point really doesn't it? How about a list of reasons why it is stupid to object, and why ID cards are the effective solution you think they are?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by towny

no, pleeeze don't, you'll get ramrod and graham started again

Originally Posted by Ramrod

took yer time ...

are you going to join in the fun then?

Originally Posted by towny

If the extent of your argument is 'I think it's pretty stupid to object' then that kind of proves my point really doesn't it? How about a list of reasons why it is stupid to object, and why ID cards are the effective solution you think they are?

Haha thats gr8 that. You call my reasons stupid lets see your reasons for not having them

Originally Posted by Defiant

Haha thats gr8 that. You call my reasons stupid lets see your reasons for not having them

I already did post a reason. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by towny

I am currently a free, independent person who has the right, should I choose, to live a life in which I need carry no personally identifying material; nor any material that a police officer can demand I produce in order to prove who I am. I could move to Sutherland and farm a croft, with no bank account, no pension, no car, no nothing, if I choose.

If an ID card were introduced, the state gains the right to require me to identify myself to one of its representatives, should they have reason. Thus, a liberty that I currently have is removed. Hence 'infringement of civil liberty.'

We can argue about whether this loss is justified given the current circumstances, but the 'loss of civil liberty' is self evident.

Now, read my last post again. I didn't call your reasons 'stupid'; I said that I think if all you have to say on the issue is that 'it's stupid to object' to ID cards, it proves my point that you don't actually have any reasons.

Anyone can say 'I like this because it's good' or 'I don't like this because it's stupid.' I'm asking you to do a little better than that and actually post some reasons why you believe what you do.

I'll give you a clue: 'Because it's stupid' is not a reason.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by towny

If an ID card were introduced, the state gains the right to require me to identify myself to one of its representatives, should they have reason. Thus, a liberty that I currently have is removed. Hence 'infringement of civil liberty.'

I was under the impression that they could already under certain circumstances.

Originally Posted by scastle

I was under the impression that they could already under certain circumstances.

Police can ask me who I am, but there is no documentation that I am legally obliged to produce in support.

Originally Posted by towny

Police can ask me who I am, but there is no documentation that I am legally obliged to produce in support.

One of the reasons why things are in such a mess in this country. Nice one, you fight the system and help those who wont to do wrong

Originally Posted by Defiant

One of the reasons why things are in such a mess in this country. Nice one, you fight the system and help those who wont to do wrong

The only way to guarantee a crime-free society would be to lock everyone up and only let people out who could prove they were law-abiding people. Anything less than this risks criminals wandering our streets. Or you might take a less extreme approach and abandon the presumption of innocence: accuse someone of something and put the burden of proof on them to show that they did not do it, rather than on the prosecution to prove that they did.

Both of these are 'liberties' we currently enjoy that you could say are helping those who want to do wrong. Any civilised society accepts the risk of criminals going free as the price of freedom and liberty for the majority. In this sense, if you go for ID cards, you are rejecting a tougher solution (i.e. lock everyone up) and you could be accused of helping people who want to do wrong. What it comes down to is, where do we draw the line? How much criminal behaviour are you prepared to tolerate and exactly how far are you prepared to inconvenience the general population as a result?

By the way, opposing the idea of ID cards is not fighting the system because 'The system' as it stands does not have ID cards. A crofter living off the land, with no form of ID whatsovever, is not fighting the system, he is exercising his rights.

Still waiting for your list of reasons why ID cards are a good idea ...