[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

That's the second time you've used the "shutting ourselves off" rubbish Stephen nobody I've seen on leave has talked that way it's usually how remain refers to leave voters. Most leavers far from shutting ourselves off are enthusiastic about greater global trade and diplomacy how is that shutting ourselves off, we want continuing trade and diplomatic cooperation with Europe how is that shutting ourselves off???. These petty taunts pretty much sum up this whole referendum both sides more interested in scoring silly little points off each other then giving voters decent information.

Originally Posted by Chris

Not a good look, is it.

Someone elsewhere I visit was asking earlier, when did Geldof stop fighting the establishment and start defending it.

Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are the establishment too. This is a fight between the establishment and we're all just involved as well.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

That's the second time you've used the "shutting ourselves off" rubbish Stephen nobody I've seen on leave has talked that way it's usually how remain refers to leave voters. Most leavers far from shutting ourselves off are enthusiastic about greater global trade and diplomacy how is that shutting ourselves off, we want continuing trade and diplomatic cooperation with Europe how is that shutting ourselves off???. These petty taunts pretty much sum up this whole referendum both sides more interested in scoring silly little points off each other then giving voters decent information.

Well indirectly that is what leave has said. Closing the borders and stopping immigrants coming in.

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Why Brexit and just turn our backs on the EU. Surely its best to remain part of it and try to sort out problems and try to improve things from the inside instead of looking in!

It could be that people wanting to stay in can't think for themselves and need someone else to do it for them a bit like the Gov it makes life a lot more easier for them to be not accountable for any law changes when they can blame the EU for it.

[passingbat]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well indirectly that is what leave has said. Closing the borders and stopping immigrants coming in.

That is just not true. Please listen to what leave are actually saying, not what remain are telling you, leave said.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well indirectly that is what leave has said. Closing the borders and stopping immigrants coming in.

Stopping uncontrolled immigration is very different from stopping all immigration.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Why Brexit and just turn our backs on the EU. Surely its best to remain part of it and try to sort out problems and try to improve things from the inside instead of looking in!

Simple. We have tried that for 40 years and it hasn't worked. We have been outvoted around 75 times in recent years so just how would staying in change that?

---------- Post added at 07:13 ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well we have more of a chance if we stay in it rather than turning our backs running away and shutting our selves off.

We are not shutting ourselves off. The idea would be to get better trade conditions without all the red tape that goes along with it. The Germans ain't gonna stop selling us cars are they? They need the trade and the EU need what we have so it makes our negotiating power a little stronger. Having said that, other countries make cars too which gives us the advantage of going there should we not get a good deal. This applies to other trade too but at least we'd have the choice to go elsewhere, a choice we don't have now.

We're not turning our backs on Europe. Geographically, we are and will always be part of Europe. We are turning our backs on an undemocratic Super State who want one big country where we can all live happily ever after. It's a fantasy. In theory it's a good idea but then again, so was Communism in it's true form until people corrupted it. It was never meant to be a dictatorship society. Think of the word and what it actually means. The same would happen, and actually is happening with an European Super State.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Why Brexit and just turn our backs on the EU. Surely its best to remain part of it and try to sort out problems and try to improve things from the inside instead of looking in!

its beyond economical repair .

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well indirectly that is what leave has said. Closing the borders and stopping immigrants coming in.

The UK have and always will have a closed border policy. Even EU Citizens have to show their visa or passport coming into this country as do our own Citizens so that's not much of an argument, is it? Try this one for an argument for leaving: I voted against the Common market in 1975 not because I didn't agree with it but because I could see where it would lead. I've seen nothing in the past 44 years to change my mind. Well, not that we couldn't have done on our own so the argument is this, Why pay the EU to do what they have done when we could have easily achieved the same reforms on our own?

On the news this morning migrants found in a lorry in Britain said "We're from Europe, let us in." Come on m8 get a grip. You don't seem to have thought much about this subject at all. It seems you are a remainer but have done no research on what staying or leaving might mean for the UK. If you had, you wouldn't be making these statements. Still, you could have said you were voting remain because of the roaming charges. ROFL!

[Stephen]

Well I have done plenty of research in to the subject and am also very intelligent.

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death. We as human beings can't just say no, go back where you came from. We have to do whats right and show compassion.

Ihighly doubt our various UK governments would have been able to do half the stuff being in the EU has brought in. Its them that privatised everything and destroyed so many industries! Can't really blame the EU for all of that.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well we have more of a chance if we stay in it rather than turning our backs running away and shutting our selves off.

Through its demonstrable intransigence over 40 years, the EEC/EU has proved you wrong.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Simple. We have tried that for 40 years and it hasn't worked. We have been outvoted around 75 times in recent years so just how would staying in change that?[COLOR="Silver"]

Alternatively, we have been on the 'winning' side 627 times (86% of the votes)

I thought the EU was undemocratic anyway, that's what Brexit people are saying, why are there votes?

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well I have done plenty of research in to the subject and am also very intelligent.

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death. We as human beings can't just say no, go back where you came from. We have to do whats right and show compassion.

Ihighly doubt our various UK governments would have been able to do half the stuff being in the EU has brought in. Its them that privatised everything and destroyed so many industries! Can't really blame the EU for all of that.

What, those coming from Europe? That's the ones we want control of

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well I have done plenty of research in to the subject and am also very intelligent.

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death. We as human beings can't just say no, go back where you came from. We have to do whats right and show compassion.

Ihighly doubt our various UK governments would have been able to do half the stuff being in the EU has brought in. Its them that privatised everything and destroyed so many industries! Can't really blame the EU for all of that.

Those were British things I agree and not very good. I meant things like workers rights.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Alternatively, we have been on the 'winning' side 627 times (86% of the votes)

I thought the EU was undemocratic anyway, that's what Brexit people are saying, why are there votes?

It's a complicated animal and would take too long to debate it but those who set the rules are not elected by the people to those positions though they are elected by those whom we have elected. The point is we have been outvoted on the important things not the trivial things. It will never change. Remain go on about 'A reformed Europe.' What exactly does this mean? They want us to remain in a 'Reformed Europe' but it isn't reformed so what are remain voting for? More of the same and a lot worse.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Well I have done plenty of research in to the subject and am also very intelligent.

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death. We as human beings can't just say no, go back where you came from. We have to do whats right and show compassion.

Ihighly doubt our various UK governments would have been able to do half the stuff being in the EU has brought in. Its them that privatised everything and destroyed so many industries! Can't really blame the EU for all of that.

But at what point do we consider that the changes to our way of life and standard of living etc. caused by admitting huge numbers of migrants from around the globe are too great? Your intent is admirable but the scale of world poverty, war, pestilence and plague is vast. There are hundreds of millions of desperate needy people in Sub Saharan Afirca alone. Clearly they can't all be accommodated here or in the EU so what are you going to do when the limit (whatever that might be) is reached? We have had a perfect example in Germany of what happens when well meaning people offer 'welcomes' and as we all know, our tolerance, hospitality and generosity tend to taper off rapidly when our own lives are adversely affected, jobs taken, wages undercut, areas changed, services overstretched etc. etc.

I dare say that if a homeless person knocked on your door this evening and asked for help you'd give him a few quid or some food. Would you keep doing that if he came back every day? What if he told his homeless mates and they came with hi asking for help? Would you let them stay over? There is a limit to generosity and we all have our own. Equally so on a national level. IIRC the UK is the world's second largest donator of foreign aid and as such I think we're already doing a hell of a lot more than many nations. Merkel's Germany isn't facing the problem we are - our population has been growing rapidly for years whilst Germany's has been in relative decline. If they were in our position they certainly wouldn't have opened their doors to a million more and in so doing caused massive unrest and disruption across large parts of Europe.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Most people that cross borders or try to live in other countries after fleaing their own aren't doing so the the fun of it. They are doing due to fear of dying in their own country or starving to death.

How does that square with the EUs admission that, by their reckoning, 80% of migrants are economic?