Russia has invaded Ukraine

[thenry]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's less about his negotiating skills - assuming he's invited to the table - and more about what he's got to negotiate with. As things stand, Trump seems to have taken away most of the cards in Zelenskyy's hand and given them to Putin in exchange for nothing.

Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by thenry

Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.

If someone strong backs you up against a larger enemy then you have a good negotiating position. If they then cease to back you up and instead support your enemy then you have a somewhat weaker negotiating position.

The 'needless war' was obviously needed by Putin or it wouldn't have happened.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Straight to the personal attack. You said the the world is "less stable" because of the Democrats. You are wrong. It's like blaming Ukraine for failing to stop Russia invading. It is clear to most who is to blame in both scenarios.

You’re quick to complain about being personally attacked. Sadly you’re even quicker to paint opinions you happen to disagree with as ‘sinister’ and ‘wow…’. I’d rather think such comments are performative rather than representing a genuine belief in the probable ill intent of those you happen to disagree with. But by all means enlighten me if I’ve misunderstood you.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

If someone strong backs you up against a larger enemy then you have a good negotiating position. If they then cease to back you up and instead support your enemy then you have a somewhat weaker negotiating position.

The 'needless war' was obviously needed by Putin or it wouldn't have happened.

Why does one need backing up if that one entity quest is legitimate? Somebody berating Russia isn't going to achieve anything. They live a different way, accept it, this world is full of different people.

Russia felt threatened and they responded.

Originally Posted by thenry

Trumps words shouldn't really matter to Ukraine. The fact Zelenskyy's house of cards has collapsed is more a showing of himself than that of Trump. Why does Ukraine need USA calling the shots? Surely Ukraine take the lead

Trumps said Russias economy will benefit. Which inturn benefits the world. Sky high costs at the moment because of a needless war is stupid. Refusal to drag the war on is getting something in return.

Not sure which particular house of cards you think has collapsed. Are you taking Twitterbots intravenously now? Or did you sign up to trial Elon’s brain implants?

Perhaps wording is everything here

with European peacekeeping troops in the country.

Not calling them "NATO troops", but "European peacekeeping troops".

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Chris

Not sure which particular house of cards you think has collapsed. Are you taking Twitterbots intravenously now? Or did you sign up to trial Elon’s brain implants?

The house of crying foul play.

Keep to the topic, not digs at each other.

Originally Posted by thenry

Why does one need backing up if that one entity quest is legitimate? Somebody berating Russia isn't going to achieve anything. They live a different way, accept it, this world is full of different people.

Russia felt threatened and they responded.

Good grief this is naive.

That’s how the world worked prior to the early 20th century. Great powers and spheres of influence. Post WW2 there is a rules-based world order which the United Nations Security Council is meant to enforce. You know, the UNSC that Russia is a permanent member of?

‘They live a different way’ excuses a whole lot of bad behaviour within one’s borders, but territorial conquest of one state by another is absolutely forbidden by the rules of the organisation Russia is meant to be a principal member of. They can’t have their cake and eat it, and nor should they be allowed to.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

You’re quick to complain about being personally attacked. Sadly you’re even quicker to paint opinions you happen to disagree with as ‘sinister’ and ‘wow…’. I’d rather think such comments are performative rather than representing a genuine belief in the probable ill intent of those you happen to disagree with. But by all means enlighten me if I’ve misunderstood you.

I am responding to your written words, nothing more:

The Dems dropped the ball by becoming obsessed with these issues and the whole world is less stable because of it.

As I said, I find this a troubling statement, not least because you fail to state who is in fact responsible for the world become less stable.

I am not being "performative" or "pearl clutching" as you put it. I genuinely am concerned that people actually prefer to put the blame for what the current Trump administration is doing at the feet of the prior administration. I see this as a dangerous and misdirected focus of attention. We should address the real issue and that is who is actually responsible and not wander down rabbit holes of misdirection.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...rump-zelensky/

Ukraine and U.S. agree to framework for minerals deal, Ukrainian official says

Ukraine and the United States have agreed to a framework for an expansive minerals deal, according to a Ukrainian official and another person familiar with the matter. The White House has not confirmed the agreement and did not respond immediately to request for comment.

The Trump administration has pushed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to repay U.S. war aid with such an agreement, amid broader pressure to come to a peace deal with Russia.

The framework for the deal would grant Washington access to Ukrainian mineral wealth on “much better terms” than those offered in an earlier proposal that Zelensky was not swift to accept, the Ukrainian official said. It does not include any mention of $500 billion — a figure that Trump told Fox News he wanted, in equivalent rare earth minerals, to repay U.S. war aid to Ukraine.

Zelensky firmly rejected claims that Washington has sent $500 billion to Ukraine, saying the figure stands at roughly $100 billion in aid.

Both the Ukrainian official and the other person familiar with the matter spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive negotiations.

[thenry]

Donald Trump is now asked about what it's like to negotiate with Vladimir Putin.

"He's a very smart guy, he's a very cunning person," Trump tells reporters.

"I've dealt with some really bad people but I will tell you as far as this is concerned, he had no intention, in my opinion, of settling this war.

"I think he wanted the whole thing when I got elected, we spoke, and I think we're going to have a deal."

Trump goes on to say that if he didn't get elected, "I believe he [Putin] would have just continued to go through Ukraine".

He adds: "Over a period of time, a lot of people would have been killed."

Turning to NATO, Trump says: "You can forget about it. That's probably the reason the whole thing started."

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-put...#liveblog-body

Thank you for clarity President Trump

Back to Donald Trump's cabinet meeting now, where he has been asked about the type of security guarantees he is willing to make with Ukraine.

"I'm not going to make security guarantees beyond very much," he says.

"We're going to have Europe do that because... we're talking about Europe is their next door neighbour, but we're making sure everything goes well."

Trump turns back to the minerals deal with Ukraine, after telling his cabinet that Volodymyr Zelenksyy will visit the US on Friday (see our 4.50pm post).

"The deal we're making brings us great wealth," Trump adds.

"We get back the money that we spent, and we hope that we're going to be able to settle this up."

Trump goes on to say it is a "great deal for Ukraine too", suggesting there will be "automatic security" because "nobody's going to be messing around with people when we're there".

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-put...#liveblog-body

Oh some logic. Europe can pull their finger out. The sanctions are really scaring Russia

Trumps only interest was this ;

The deal we're making brings us great wealth

His only worry as far as Ukraine goes is that if Putin succeeded, the US might lose access to the minerals.

Originally Posted by Paul

Trumps only interest was this ;


His only worry as far as Ukraine goes is that if Putin succeeded, the US might lose access to the minerals.

The Ukrainians appear to have realised this, and have proposed a minerals deal that can’t work unless the Americans are prepared to defend their new assets. Zelenskyy is pragmatic enough to understand he’s going to have to pay something for American help (after all, we did, for decades after WW2), and in that regard paying with commodities the Americans will come in and extract is a pretty straightforward way of doing it.

Worth noting that unless there is a credible ceasefire, the deal can’t come into force. Also worth noting that according to multiple commentators the deal on the table doesn’t settle on quantities or values, it simply agrees the parties will meet to agree those things later, i.e. if/when there is a ceasefire.

Trump will spend the rest of this week and most of next shouting about how he’s secured the US hundreds of millions of $$$s, but I’m seeing various Ukraine-supporting Twitter accounts talking about this tonight and every single one of them thinks Ukraine has played a blinder here.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

The Ukrainians appear to have realised this, and have proposed a minerals deal that can’t work unless the Americans are prepared to defend their new assets.

The Times, however, has just reported.

The US and Ukraine have struck a deal to share Kyiv’s mineral assets, with President Zelensky set to sign the accord when he arrives in Washington on Friday.

There is no provision in the agreement for US-backed security guarantees, however, which Kyiv has previously demanded to ward off the threat of any future Russian military action.

https://www.thetimes.com/us/american...isit-nlld7k52c