[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Damien

Why wouldn't change our laws? It's can be part of a trade deal. Maybe if we want to deal with american financial services we may have to have a bunch of laws detailing how data is dealt with, how we report it and so on. There are many other times that this is the case as well. We give up some degree of control when we join bodies such as NATO, the UN and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The more commitments you make to other nations or international bodies the more you're bound up those commitments. You've removed some ability to act completely independently but have gained something in return.

You talk about sovereignty as if it were a singular thing which you ever have or you do not have. In reality hardly any nation is completely sovereign in the sense you seem to mean, i.e completely free from outside influence, but we are sovereign in the sense we can opt out of any of these examples when we want - including the EU - if we're willing to accept the consequences.

The crucial difference is that outside the EU, we alone decide whether the deal is worth the compromise. Trade deals negotiated via the EU result in a mass of compromises aimed at keeping 28 member states happy and may involve us making compromises we would not be willing to make, nor be required to make, if we were acting alone.

Originally Posted by Chris

The crucial difference is that outside the EU, we alone decide whether the deal is worth the compromise. Trade deals negotiated via the EU result in a mass of compromises aimed at keeping 28 member states happy and may involve us making compromises we would not be willing to make, nor be required to make, if we were acting alone.

Trade deals yes. We would have more control or 'take back control™'. It doesn't mean the trade deals with be as good or easy to obtain. The EU though is an example of where we've traded some sovereignty in exchange for access to the single market. People can decide if the trade-off is worth it or not and many here seem to believe not, fair enough.

However I am just pointing out this isn't a question of not being sovereign and then becoming sovereign. It's just a degree of scale. To be honest I suspect we'll sign up to much of the single market anyway in some weird version of the EEA and just lose the social chapter stuff.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Damien

The EU though is an example of where we've traded some sovereignty in exchange for access to the single market.

We joined the EEC for access to the single market not the EU.

I have nothing against the single market, I do however have a problem with a "club" that changes the rules once you are in it.

Originally Posted by Chris

The crucial difference is that outside the EU, we alone decide whether the deal is worth the compromise. Trade deals negotiated via the EU result in a mass of compromises aimed at keeping 28 member states happy and may involve us making compromises we would not be willing to make, nor be required to make, if we were acting alone.

Exactly

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Trade deals yes. We would have more control or 'take back control™'. It doesn't mean the trade deals with be as good or easy to obtain. The EU though is an example of where we've traded some sovereignty in exchange for access to the single market. People can decide if the trade-off is worth it or not and many here seem to believe not, fair enough.

However I am just pointing out this isn't a question of not being sovereign and then becoming sovereign. It's just a degree of scale. To be honest I suspect we'll sign up to much of the single market anyway in some weird version of the EEA and just lose the social chapter stuff.

Whatever happens if we leave we will manage ,after all the rest of the world survive outside the EU ,mostly quite well

Originally Posted by martyh

Whatever happens if we leave we will manage ,after all the rest of the world survive outside the EU ,mostly quite well

Not many countries' though have started from a position of already being integrated into the EU's market and then leaving. I believe the UK can be fine in the long-term, I just question the merit of the short and medium term to get there.

But that is the economic argument, I was talking about the concept of sovereignty.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not many countries' though have started from a position of already being integrated into the EU's market and then leaving. I believe the UK can be fine in the long-term, I just question the merit of the short and medium term to get there.

But that is the economic argument, I was talking about the concept of sovereignty.

The end justifies the means.

Originally Posted by Big Brian

The end justifies the means.

Wow!

Just "wow!"

[Taf]

...tens of millions ....................... are thought to have come to the UK in the past week.

This is 100 times the number that arrive in the entire year.

Diamondback moths... arriving from the EU... I hope Camoron tried to stop their sudden migration here.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

Diamondback moths... arriving from the EU... I hope Camoron tried to stop their sudden migration here.

Well the remainers did forecast a plague of pests if we left the EU so maybe they've had a tip off.

I dare say the European Court of Justice will ensure we can't send them back...

[pip08456]

For those interested.

38 Degrees has a new opinion-tracking tool - known as a 'worm' - that helps us all give our verdict on the live TV debates. You can share your reactions using your computer or mobile phone while you watch the telly - then see how it measures up with thousands of other 38 Degrees members. It's a bit like shouting at the telly. Except more satisfying.

It has two buttons that you click during the debate: one for when you like what the person on screen is saying, and one for when you don’t. A 'worm' at the top of the screen records how all of us are voting. If lots of us like what’s being said, the worm goes up. If lots of us don’t, the worm goes down.

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[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ianch99

It is this kind of misinformation, fuelled by the right wing media, that will win the critical votes ..

Why would the Polish worker gets the job instead of the deserving "British" one?

Maybe they:

- work harder?
- do a better job?
- are willing to accept the pay that the BRITISH employer sets?
- are more punctual?

who knows ..

In the Brexit Nirvana, of course these "youngsters" will gleefully take the jobs that the poor old Poles are no longer able to do, won't they? The jobs they currently are choosing not to compete for ..

That is bull plop. When Roland from Poland first arrived he was prepared to live 7 or 8 to a house, work casually self employed for under the minimum wage and do all the hours god sent to make the money up, it's not true any more, they're institutionalised into our way of life with its rules and rights, I've seen it hundreds of times literally over the years and it annoys me of to have our own workforce and young people denegrated with such nonsense. If the Poles are so wonderful how did we ever manage to hold our own without them all those years.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That is bull plop. When Roland from Poland first arrived he was prepared to live 7 or 8 to a house, work casually self employed for under the minimum wage and do all the hours god sent to make the money up, it's not true any more, they're institutionalised into our way of life with its rules and rights, I've seen it hundreds of times literally over the years and it annoys me of to have our own workforce and young people denegrated with such nonsense. If the Poles are so wonderful how did we ever manage to hold our own without them all those years.

You are right it is rubbish .. that Poles stop our "young people" getting jobs. Its a level playing field. There are are jobs and everyone can apply for them .. for now ..

Oh and blaming the Poles for UK youth unemployment is the sort of bilge peddled by "Project Lie"* ..

* I am giving in and am joining the childish name calling just to balance things up a bit

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are right it is rubbish .. that Poles stop our "young people" getting jobs. Its a level playing field. There are are jobs and everyone can apply for them .. for now ..

Oh and blaming the Poles for UK youth unemployment is the sort of bilge peddled by "Project Lie"* ..

* I am giving in and am joining the childish name calling just to balance things up a bit

They did used to stop people getting jobs not because they were so hardworking and wonderful but because of the way they lived here, their depression of wages meant local people couldn't afford the simple things like food and a roof over their head if they competed for jobs with them. It's changed over the last few years and the playing field is more or less level from what I've seen, which is quite a bit to be fair.

[Ramrod]

Everyone. Whether you are 'in' or 'out' (but especially 'in'), please, please, read this article (or watch the video). It documents the history of the UK & the EU with respect to our democracy:
link
Please read/listen to it

And now for Comres:

http://order-order.com/2016/06/14/co...lead-crumbles/

Remain 46
Leave 45

Which is not as comforting for Europhiles as you might think, as this time last month Comres had Remain 12 points ahead.

There's a clear direction of travel here, and it is early enough and substantial enough for Leave to have a small but solid lead by Thursday week.