Muslims to march in London

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Now, what about the rest of xaccers post--any comments?

Yes. He didn't answer, with any degree of factuality or relevance, a single solitary point I raised.

Originally Posted by basa

"Briton's insult at being termed 'Kaffir'. Calls for new laws protecting British atheists"

Not just atheists - all non-muslims...

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Yes. He didn't answer, with any degree of factuality or relevance, a single solitary point I raised.

Then pull him up on it!

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I don't know either but I assume that if it was just the marchers polled, they would have said

OK, the Telegraph article says:

The results of the poll, conducted for the Sunday Telegraph, came as thousands of Muslims staged a fresh protest in London...

That simply says that the ICM poll results were published in the Sunday Telegraph - which clearly means the poll was done before the protest.

Half of the 500 people surveyed said relations between white Britons and Muslims were getting worse. Only just over half thought the conviction of the cleric Abu Hamza for incitement to murder and race hatred was fair.

So it wasn't 400 either, AND a similar proportion still think Hamza got a rough deal.

BTW - Full results of the poll available from the ICM website.

ICM interviewed a random sample of 500 Muslim people by telephone between 14-16th February 2006.

There are other archived polls with some interesting findings, e.g. this one (shortly after 7/7.)

[Mr Angry]

No, that's not my intention.

What I was hoping for was an honest dialogue about how we have arrived at this juncture and how and what steps can be taken to redress these preconceptions.

Sorry Xaccers.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

No, that's not my intention.

What I was hoping for was an honest dialogue about how we have arrived at this juncture and how and what steps can be taken to redress these preconceptions.

Sorry Xaccers.

If someone has entered this country with the purpose to attack it either physically or financially, and rally others to do the same, then surely they should be ejected from the country.

Even though I grew up in a country with sharia laws, which restricted worship by other faiths, and access of infidels, I certainly would object to anyone trying to change that without going through peaceful processes.

If someone was born here and decides to attack the nation through finacial means, should they be allowed to do so?
I don't believe they should.
In such a case, rather than a custodial sentance which costs the nation more, better to remove their citizenship so that they have to contribute.

No one here is saying "muslims should go back where they came from"
Many are however saying "people who attack this nation should not live here" and by attack they do not mean grumbling about the goverment, but actual action being taken such as rallying people to commit terrorist acts, deliberately avoiding paying tax and living off benifits for political reasons.

Like I said, if you gave me sanctuary in your home, and I started attacking it, would you throw me out or pass me dog poo to smear on your walls?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

, they need a larger survey....

Seems the results from their random sample should be pretty close to accurate...

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

Seems the results from their random sample should be pretty close to accurate...

Doesn't that just mean the accuracy of the 40% result out of the 500 questioned?
IE that its pretty accurate that 40% of those questioned do indeed want sharia law (rather than 80% wanting it but 40% lying to look good), but that's not the same as 40% of all muslims in the nation.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

Not just atheists - all non-muslims...

I think Kaffir actually refers to idol worshippers/people who dont follow a religion. A Christian or a Jew would not be refered to as a Kaffir (pronounced carfeer)

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------

So the sample population is 500?

So are we saying that half of the 500 want Shariah law and dont feel that Abu Hamza was rightly sentenced?

Even if all 500 agreed with that , then to say that this is a representation of what the majority of muslims ion the UK feel is just plain stupid.

On a further note if you read page 8 of todays Sun, as a few million people in the UK will do so, under a headline of "Beware the rise of muslim hardliners" it says that 4 out of 10 British muslims now favour strict Sharia Law for their communities. Later on it says "Imams in 200 UK mosques hark back to Islams &th century glory days when small armies of determined men swept outr of arabia conquering Spain and threatening Europe..."

Now I go to 4 mosques regualry in South London, and never have I heard that, and more importantly theres no mention of survey numbers, implying that 400,000 UK muslims (approx) feel that Shariah law should be in the UK. Now that to me, just adds fuel to a Lets Be Scared of Islam/Muslims want to take over the UK attitude taht I see a lot of people trying to get at. Doesnt do much for muslim/non muslim relations does it

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

A Christian or a Jew would not be refered to as a Kaffir (pronounced carfeer)

No, because they are the 'people of the book', and as such should be respected, not bombed into submission.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

So the sample population is 500?

So are we saying that half of the 500 want Shariah law and dont feel that Abu Hamza was rightly sentenced?

Even if all 500 agreed with that , then to say that this is a representation of what the majority of muslims ion the UK feel is just plain stupid.

As I read it, a 40% result has a 95% confidence to within 4.3%.

Since a poll is supposed to be a measure of the section of the population targetted (in this case Muslims) this result is apparently quite indicative of the whole Muslim population of the UK.

So no, it is not the majority of UK Muslims who want sharia law, but apparently a large percentage of them would. And I would consider 40% a pretty significant proportion. (Since the UK has an electoral system where 40% of the population can actually elect a government...)

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

On a further note if you read page 8 of todays Sun, as a few million people in the UK will do so, under a headline of "Beware the rise of muslim hardliners" it says that 4 out of 10 British muslims now favour strict Sharia Law for their communities.... Doesnt do much for muslim/non muslim relations does it

As you point out, that was in the Sun...

[basa]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

...........So the sample population is 500?

So are we saying that half of the 500 want Shariah law and dont feel that Abu Hamza was rightly sentenced?

Even if all 500 agreed with that , then to say that this is a representation of what the majority of muslims ion the UK feel is just plain stupid.

On a further note if you read page 8 of todays Sun, as a few million people in the UK will do so, under a headline of "Beware the rise of muslim hardliners" it says that 4 out of 10 British muslims now favour strict Sharia Law for their communities. Later on it says "Imams in 200 UK mosques hark back to Islams &th century glory days when small armies of determined men swept outr of arabia conquering Spain and threatening Europe..."

Now I go to 4 mosques regualry in South London, and never have I heard that, and more importantly theres no mention of survey numbers, implying that 400,000 UK muslims (approx) feel that Shariah law should be in the UK. Now that to me, just adds fuel to a Lets Be Scared of Islam/Muslims want to take over the UK attitude taht I see a lot of people trying to get at. Doesnt do much for muslim/non muslim relations does it

Whatever the sample and percentages, IMO it is clear a significant proportion of UK muslims would like to see islamic law (whether sharia or whatever) introduced in UK as the lead if not sole religion. Also it is clear that this proportion is likely to be be the most fundamental, hardline, fanatical and vociferous and as such more likely to be heard than the moderate majority.

[punky]

Originally Posted by basa

Whatever the sample and percentages, IMO it is clear a significant proportion of UK muslims would like to see islamic law (whether sharia or whatever) introduced in UK as the lead if not sole religion.

To be fair though, there is a big difference between want and what they'll fight for. If they would like Shariah law, fair enough. If they are willing to fight to get Shariah law, then we have a big problem.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

So the sample population is 500?

So are we saying that half of the 500 want Shariah law and dont feel that Abu Hamza was rightly sentenced?

Even if all 500 agreed with that , then to say that this is a representation of what the majority of muslims ion the UK feel is just plain stupid.

Provided the sample surveyed was sufficiently large, and a true cross-section of the group being questioned, then it is statistically acceptable to draw conclusions from the results obtained.

I am not a statistician, but ICM is a respected polling organisation and I have no reason to doubt their findings. Unless it turns out that their sample was drawn from outside Finsbury Park mosque on a Friday afternoon of course.

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Originally Posted by punky

To be fair though, there is a big difference between want and what they'll fight for. If they would like Shariah law, fair enough. If they are willing to fight to get Shariah law, then we have a big problem.

Indeed. I want the whole world to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and saviour. I'm not about to tool up and force anyone to believe it though.

[Chrysalis]

I agree with what Xaccers says extradite them, may sound mean but end of the day the country has laws and anyone living here I would expect to be respectful of its traditions and values. I don't mark all muslims with the same brush, the ones who disagree with the comments in the protests and are peaceful I am happy for them to live here.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I agree with what Xaccers says extradite them, may sound mean but end of the day the country has laws and anyone living here I would expect to be respectful of its traditions and values. I don't mark all muslims with the same brush, the ones who disagree with the comments in the protests and are peaceful I am happy for them to live here.

Extradite them to where? A lot of the hotheads who are going on these marches were born here and are as British as you or I.