Immigrants allowed in unchecked

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Damien - with respect as a 17 year old it is all very well to support a 3rd term when you don't have to pay for that 3rd term.

The NHS may be being saved by these outside workers, but the domino effect is that the healthcare systems of the Phillipines and many other countries are being decimated by our poaching of staff. The Indian doctors who moved over here and propped up the NHS in the 60s wanted to come here with their families and integrate.

Those fleeing abuse from their nations should be glad to settle in any safe nation, Germany, France etc, they migrate here as the benefits system supports them to a far more generous (though in reality hardly generous) level than in those countries.

And then, the costs of supporting this do not come from your wage packet. I'm sure you will still be pro-Blair when you are 21 and graduating having had 3 years of limited support from the Government and been university educated while the system was in a state of transition and scholarships and bursaries from alumni were not in place to support the educational institution going forward.

That said - I'm glad that as a 17 year old you have decided to opt into the political decision making process and make your views known. Too many of your peers don't care and then get mad when they can vote but don't and don't see change.

Careful, your bordering on the patronizing there SMHarman, I'm 21, I'm in full time education at Uni and I support New Labour, and happy to stand up and be counted.

Just because someone is younger or paying less tax than you doesn't mean their views are less considered than yours.

In regard to poaching staff from abroad, are you as moral when it come to purchasing items that were made in the middle/far east? Where workers are aid a pittance by the multi nationals?

But as you so rightly said, there a far too many people that complain about the systems and policies in place but don't bother going and putting that little x in the box.

Maybe people will this time, after all the media are gunning for the labour government at the moment, but I'm sure a short stint in "Howards 50's" will remind people why Labour were voted in last time

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dellwear

Careful, your bordering on the patronizing there SMHarman, I'm 21, I'm in full time education at Uni and I support New Labour, and happy to stand up and be counted.

One *slap*

Originally Posted by dellwear

Just because someone is younger or paying less tax than you doesn't mean their views are less considered than yours.

Very true.

Originally Posted by dellwear

In regard to poaching staff from abroad, are you as moral when it come to purchasing items that were made in the middle/far east? Where workers are aid a pittance by the multi nationals?

But a pittance to us (say 3p a day) is a good wage in a lot of countries, and if we don't buy their stuff, then they'll be out of jobs.
Pressure by the west to have these people paid more can result in hyper inflation. Just look what's happened to house prices because couple's disposable incomes have increased so much in the past 10 years.

Originally Posted by dellwear

But as you so rightly said, there a far too many people that complain about the systems and policies in place but don't bother going and putting that little x in the box.

Yup, voter apathy is a terrible thing

Originally Posted by dellwear

Maybe people will this time, after all the media are gunning for the labour government at the moment, but I'm sure a short stint in "Howards 50's" will remind people why Labour were voted in last time

Or more accurately why the tories were voted out
Tho I bet the tories (that's the real tories, not new labour) have learnt their lesson and once they get back in after the next election, we can get back to fixing the country.

It's interesting how labour on one hand can talk about increasing the security checks of immigrants, yet let in huge numbers without checks on their validity etc just to fudge the figures.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

But a pittance to us (say 3p a day) is a good wage in a lot of countries, and if we don't buy their stuff, then they'll be out of jobs.
Pressure by the west to have these people paid more can result in hyper inflation. Just look what's happened to house prices because couple's disposable incomes have increased so much in the past 10 years.

But we could pay them a decent wage comarable to the west and enable their goverements to get sufficent tax revenue to build up their countries like we have.

Or more accurately why the tories were voted out
Tho I bet the tories (that's the real tories, not new labour) have learnt their lesson and once they get back in after the next election, we can get back to fixing the country. .

I don't think they have learnt a thing, they have similar policies to when they were thrown out of power, the latest idea is to take the countrie back to the 50's

It's interesting how labour on one hand can talk about increasing the security checks of immigrants, yet let in huge numbers without checks on their validity etc just to fudge the figures.

Really though it wasn't a government official that approved their applications (for what ever it was) it was a civil servant. I agree it shouldn't have happened, but the MP's in charge of these departments don;t actually work down the immigration processing office standing over the workers. They are told by the management what's happening and let the managers do the running of the offices, just as it has been done for years.

You can't hold the cabinet minister for the Benefits agency responsible for every tom dick or harry that starts giving out free money to people can you?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dellwear

But we could pay them a decent wage comarable to the west and enable their goverements to get sufficent tax revenue to build up their countries like we have.

But with the wages going up, you either get the nike shoe makers becoming equivalents of millionaires in their nation, or everyone from private car mechanic to civil servant has to get an equal increase in pay, where's that money coming from?
And sure, people earning more means they pay more taxes, but the things those taxes get spent on also would cost more, so it negates the benifit.

Originally Posted by dellwear

I don't think they have learnt a thing, they have similar policies to when they were thrown out of power, the latest idea is to take the countrie back to the 50's

But they weren't thrown out of power by the great unwashed because of their policies, they were thrown out because of their sleaze and people had lost confidence in them thanks to the media.
I'm hoping labour will be out next election so they can't do any further damage.
Since they came in, I'm worse off, everyone I know is worse off, even my ex, who is a working single parent is worse off!
We've had umpteen dozen strikes.
The fuel blockades.
Safe conservative councils having their gov council tax contributions reduced to rediculous amounts.

Originally Posted by dellwear

Really though it wasn't a government official that approved their applications (for what ever it was) it was a civil servant. I agree it shouldn't have happened, but the MP's in charge of these departments don;t actually work down the immigration processing office standing over the workers. They are told by the management what's happening and let the managers do the running of the offices, just as it has been done for years.

You can't hold the cabinet minister for the Benefits agency responsible for every tom dick or harry that starts giving out free money to people can you?

Yes you can. That's the point of having a minister. They are responsible for what their department does. If a member of their department does something like this, in breach of department and gov policy, and at risk to the nation, then the minister obviously has allowed incompetancy within the dept managment. A good manager knows what his staff is doing and so would be aware of such a breach.
A few years back, when politics was done with more honour, ministers would resign for such incompetance, but with tony, it just isn't happening.
He won't even accept his own responsibilities and deal with the whislte blower who's being punished (but wait, isn't this gov supposed to be pro wistle blower?)

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

But with the wages going up, you either get the nike shoe makers becoming equivalents of millionaires in their nation, or everyone from private car mechanic to civil servant has to get an equal increase in pay, where's that money coming from?
And sure, people earning more means they pay more taxes, but the things those taxes get spent on also would cost more, so it negates the benifit.

I see where you're coming from, but how can these countries be expected to compete in the "world market" thats been created with the tiny amounts of money they have?

But they weren't thrown out of power by the great unwashed because of their policies, they were thrown out because of their sleaze and people had lost confidence in them thanks to the media.
I'm hoping labour will be out next election so they can't do any further damage.
Since they came in, I'm worse off, everyone I know is worse off, even my ex, who is a working single parent is worse off!
We've had umpteen dozen strikes.
The fuel blockades.
Safe conservative councils having their gov council tax contributions reduced to rediculous amounts.

I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time :pease:

edit I wonder what the x million who are back in work think?

Yes you can. That's the point of having a minister. They are responsible for what their department does. If a member of their department does something like this, in breach of department and gov policy, and at risk to the nation, then the minister obviously has allowed incompetancy within the dept managment. A good manager knows what his staff is doing and so would be aware of such a breach.
A few years back, when politics was done with more honour, ministers would resign for such incompetance, but with tony, it just isn't happening.
He won't even accept his own responsibilities and deal with the whislte blower who's being punished (but wait, isn't this gov supposed to be pro wistle blower?)

If a teacher slaps a student in a school in Manchester at 9.00am while the minister for Education is in a meeting in Southampton, how on earth can you hold that minister responsible for the incident? I just cant see the direct link

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by dellwear

Careful, your bordering on the patronizing there SMHarman, I'm 21, I'm in full time education at Uni and I support New Labour, and happy to stand up and be counted.

Just because someone is younger or paying less tax than you doesn't mean their views are less considered than yours.

Thank you. I'm happy you said bordering on. I re-read this carefully before I posted it because of that. For the same reason I wrapped up the post with the positive comment about opting into the political decision making process. It wasnot meant to patronise, but merely as a frustration from someone who feels battered from both sides by this government. Pay more tax to support better services, but as you are a middle class, middle income earner don't expect any support from us as a government.

In many respects I am happy to be paying the level of tax I am. It means I earn a good salary for a start. The problem I have with our current tax system is its lack of transparancy and the fact that instead of breaking a stupid election pledge not to raise direct taxation we are creating a mountain of indirect taxations and a further mountain of staff to monitor, collect and process them. Would I prefer 1% on income tax or NI. No real difference in my pocket, but a helluva processing difference for those who had to rewrite their payroll apps to cope with the new NI bands.

I've studied accountancy, i've studied tax and when I can't understand my self-assesment tax return who can? And thats the stuff you declare on a tax return, then there is VAT, Road Tax (Vehicle Excise Duty for the pedantic), Road Fuel Tax, Gas and Electricity VAT, VAT on compulsory insurance premiums (4% of your car insurance premium goes to the govt.). Council Tax, Stamp Duty, Tax on Savings (which I paid tax on before I put them in the bank), Inheretance Tax (hang on didn't these assets get Income Tax and VAT and Stamp Duty on them when they were bought?). I could go on. As a sole earner in my house, the fact that Mrs H's personal allowances cannot be shared with me - If they are personal why can she not give them away? means that our take home pay would be significantly more if there were two earners on half the pay.

My concern is where this tax take goes. Genuine asylum seekers should be supported. We don't have a good infrastructure for this, so fortunes go to slum hostel landlords for putting them up in poor conditions at £100+ a night. Westminster and Wandsworth Council (amongst many others) spend £ÃÆ ’‚£Ãà¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£Ãƒââ‚ ¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£ a night in this manner. As a council tax payer it is frustrating to think that your annual bill of say £1400 will be in the hands of a private landlord within a fortnight because of the capacity crunch and their ability to charge such rates.

Healthcare. The system is good in parts, but not enough for me to trust it fully, like I would the French or German systems, so I buy (through a company group policy) BUPA cover, an expense that could be considered a tax in many respects. As a private home owner there is no safety net from the govt if I lose my job (unlike a renter has) so again another policy as the state does not cover me.

The government takes nearly 40% of the nations wealth. Up from 37% when they came into power. The government now has 8% more money than when it came to power where is that going. I wish I had an 8% payrise over the last few years.

Originally Posted by dellwear

In regard to poaching staff from abroad, are you as moral when it come to purchasing items that were made in the middle/far east? Where workers are aid a pittance by the multi nationals?

Is this possible in todays global economy? The skill base has moved and we no longer produce many goods to enable you to buy british. I hope the manufacturers I buy from use good supply chain management, but in the same way we are now exporting call centre jobs we exported these roles for a lower cost base many years ago. If we are paying a fair market rate to the country then the whole transaction should be fair. A lot of this production has been exported to China which has now become one of the powerhouse economies of the world. Surely this is a benefit in both directions.

Originally Posted by dellwear

But as you so rightly said, there a far too many people that complain about the systems and policies in place but don't bother going and putting that little x in the box.

Maybe people will this time, after all the media are gunning for the labour government at the moment, but I'm sure a short stint in "Howards 50's" will remind people why Labour were voted in last time

Perhaps - I'm one of those who have lost trust in this government economically. That is more a finger pointed at Brown, not Blair. Be transparent. Admit that to put 30 years of underspending right will hurt, but dont try to pretend we can have jam today and tomorrow.

Oh and I so nearly had the next green pip (he says preparing for the neg rep).

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by dellwear

Really though it wasn't a government official that approved their applications (for what ever it was) it was a civil servant. I agree it shouldn't have happened, but the MP's in charge of these departments don;t actually work down the immigration processing office standing over the workers. They are told by the management what's happening and let the managers do the running of the offices, just as it has been done for years.

You can't hold the cabinet minister for the Benefits agency responsible for every tom dick or harry that starts giving out free money to people can you?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Yes you can. That's the point of having a minister. They are responsible for what their department does. If a member of their department does something like this, in breach of department and gov policy, and at risk to the nation, then the minister obviously has allowed incompetancy within the dept managment. A good manager knows what his staff is doing and so would be aware of such a breach.
A few years back, when politics was done with more honour, ministers would resign for such incompetance, but with tony, it just isn't happening.
He won't even accept his own responsibilities and deal with the whislte blower who's being punished (but wait, isn't this gov supposed to be pro wistle blower?)

But on the flip side when My MP contacted the MP responsible for Immigration, Naturalisation etc, we got a simple immigration approval for Permanent Leave to Remain escalated up the process by the end of the week. The Ministers do have the power.

In the same way, when corporate scandles occur, we expect those at the top to have been aware, or have had the management information and the cognicence to understand it. After all thats why they are there.

This is a problem of the governance system. Those who want to be MPs by default should not be allowed to be, those who don't and are capable or running great corporations on the other hand should be running government departments and running them with the efficiency of major corporations.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dellwear

I see where you're coming from, but how can these countries be expected to compete in the "world market" thats been created with the tiny amounts of money they have?

They've got a huge advantage with the world market. That's why coffee companies, nike, several banks and other companies have so many employees over there.
Cheap labour force relative to the UK for instance when you take the exchange rate into account.
Excellent export oppertunities if they have a manufacturing base.
People get worked up that in some parts of the world the average wage is $1 a month, but fail to take into account in those parts you can buy a house for $12 (ok made that figure up but you get the gist of what I mean)

Originally Posted by dellwear

I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time

edit I wonder what the x million who are back in work think?

Exactly how has the gov managed to do that?
Haven't heard of any tax incentives for companies like Nissan recently.

Originally Posted by delwear

If a teacher slaps a student in a school in Manchester at 9.00am while the minister for Education is in a meeting in Southampton, how on earth can you hold that minister responsible for the incident? I just cant see the direct link

It is the minister's responsibility to see that something is done about it, ie an investigation and the teacher dealt with.
If the minister fails to do this, then they are not doing their job.
If I remember correctly about the immigration case, the whistle blower has been suspended, and the civil servants who were involved in letting it happen are getting off scott free.
And then you have the minister responsible for the civil service refusing to do his job.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Perhaps - I'm one of those who have lost trust in this government economically. That is more a finger pointed at Brown, not Blair. Be transparent. Admit that to put 30 years of underspending right will hurt, but dont try to pretend we can have jam today and tomorrow.

I think this sums it up for many of the people that won't be voting for LAbour this time around, maybe its time they did something about it.

Oh and I so nearly had the next green pip (he says preparing for the neg rep).

I try to reserve them for the people that can't put a coherent argument together

edit I was going to rep you Xac as well as SMHarman, but I only did it yesterday for another thread so I can't

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Exactly how has the gov managed to do that?

One example of an initative the goverment brought in is New Deal, somthing The torys have pledged to scrap when if tehy get back in power

It is the minister's responsibility to see that something is done about it, ie an investigation and the teacher dealt with.
If the minister fails to do this, then they are not doing their job.

I beleve in this case the minister has arranaged an investigation, but people calling for her head isn;t going to fix the problem.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by dellwear

I try to reserve them for the people that can't put a coherent argument together

edit I was going to rep you Xac as well as SMHarman, but I only did it yesterday for another thread so I can't

Just done it for you m8

Good posts !

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dellwear

One example of an initative the goverment brought in is New Deal, somthing The torys have pledged to scrap when if tehy get back in power

New Deal, same old spin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1218169.stm

Official statistics show that the number of Britons in work rose faster in the last three years of Conservative rule, between 1994 and spring 1997, than it did during the first three years of the current Labour administration.

Crucially, unemployment also fell faster, although this would be expected when starting from a higher base - the number of dole claimants stood above 3 million as late as 1993.

So according to official figures, employment rose faster and unemployment dropped faster under the last few years of the tories than it has under labour, even with the new deal...

Originally Posted by dellwear

I beleve in this case the minister has arranaged an investigation, but people calling for her head isn;t going to fix the problem.

So why is the whistleblower being punished and not those who actually let it happen?
Why is the minister for the civil service ignoring his duties?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by stuartbe

Just done it for you m8

Good posts !

Green reps all round

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by stuartbe

Just done it for you m8

Good posts !

Cheers Stu

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

New Deal, same old spin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1218169.stm



So according to official figures, employment rose faster and unemployment dropped faster under the last few years of the tories than it has under labour, even with the new deal...

But we're now a the lowest level of unemployment for donkeys years:

The number of unemployed people fell from 2.9 million in 1993 to 1.5 million in October-December 2001

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=697

So why is the whistleblower being punished and not those who actually let it happen?
Why is the minister for the civil service ignoring his duties?

I believe that its because he didn't use the official channels available to him