Proposal for a "Customer" Panel

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by Alanmelon

- If ntl wanted to obtain such feedback, or wanted the involvement of it's customers it would have done so. I doubt that they will appreciate others trying to tell them how to run the show.

I think this may be doing NTL an injustice.

Had they had no interest at all in feedback and simply wanted to silence .com they could have done so far more cheaply and with far less problems and more importantly far earlier.

They actually have a very large investment in .com at many levels not least the cost of running the forum since buying it and funding its moderation since then.

The fact they stuck with it through many difficult and contentious times indicates to me at least a willingness to try and make it work.

Yes they often made mistakes and shooting themselves in the foot became a regular spectator sport at times but the basic idea of an NTL owned but user run forum was working well the majority of the time especially for those with specific problems the direct link to NTL could help resolve.

One final point just for clarification. This is not about me or any other individual seeking any part to play in this process other than as an ordinary member of the forum. In fact my disability may well preclude me from ever accepting any formal role in this or any other initiative. I just happen to think this is an idea that has merit and felt oblidged to put it forward for consideration.

[Frank]

I suggest if this does get off the ground that it be stressed to ntl that one of the terms is that this site is NOT for sale to them, no they can't buy it if they agree to participate (as that didn't work last time), and they particpate on our terms as we are the customers.

[Sociable]

I think they already know that by now Keyser but yes in fact the "independance" of any customer panel is inherant in the basic concept. ie it can't just be an "In House" focus group.

Also follows a basic principle they forgot when purchasing .com in the first place. They may have brought the domain name but they could never buy the membership as we were never for sale either.

[Frank]

You're right Sociable, but in my experience ntl will be very reluctant to get involved with something they don't control themselves. ntl PR would never allow it

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong though.

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by Keyser

You're right Sociable, but in my experience ntl will be very reluctant to get involved with something they don't control themselves. ntl PR would never allow it

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong though.

As I always say, the impossible we do today miracles take a little longer.

Patient but persistent pressure will wear them down eventually as even they know they need to find a way to change how people percieve them. If anything its the fact they can't control the PR aspects without some kind of initiative that involves direct input from the customers that may make this kind of idea appealing.

[Undisputedtruth]

I think the idea of having a customer panel is an excellent one. When I'm suspended on nthw.com for no particular good reason, the mods are reluctant to reason with me. They expect a PM with very little explanation, followed up by a quote from ToS to be sufficient for me. Due to their failure in their communications, I could see no reason why I should modify my behaviour.

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by Undisputedtruth

I think the idea of having a customer panel is an excellent one.

Many thanks for that but with regards to the rest of the post can I repeat what I have said in the other thread as it applies equally to this one:

Originally Posted by Sociable

Can I make an appeal to all the ex .com assylum seekers?

We have all been welcomed warmly even getting a new smiley to mark the event it seems.

Can we all try our best not to bring the problems from .com here and concentrate on the positives. This is the best thank you we can give to .co.uk for their welcome.

Yes there are some issues for .com moderation should it re-open but clean or dirty that particular piece of laundry needs to be left in the .com linen basket till the future of .com is sorted. IMHO

We achieved so much at .com to resolve the long standing factional infighting in those last few days let's not throw it all away by pi$$ing in the soup here.

This is not to stiffle debate on the issue but simply a request everyone holds off, for the relatively short time hopefully, between now and .com's future being resolved one way or another.

Many Thanks

[snuffs99]

Can i second that sociable.

For all those who just can't move on, get help if you must but do as the man says and LET IT GO.

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Undisputedtruth

I think the idea of having a customer panel is an excellent one. When I'm suspended on nthw.com for no particular good reason, the mods are reluctant to reason with me. They expect a PM with very little explanation, followed up by a quote from ToS to be sufficient for me. Due to their failure in their communications, I could see no reason why I should modify my behaviour.

just a small point but this is .co.uk as you well know , maybe it is time to leave it until or if .com comes back on , then you can bitch at them as much as you want , in the meantime can you leave it out on here , t/y

[handyman]

Originally Posted by Undisputedtruth

I think the idea of having a customer panel is an excellent one. When I'm suspended on nthw.com for no particular good reason, the mods are reluctant to reason with me. They expect a PM with very little explanation, followed up by a quote from ToS to be sufficient for me. Due to their failure in their communications, I could see no reason why I should modify my behaviour.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, what sociable is suggesting is not a panel between the users of this site and the mods (as in a way to solve disputes like the ones you seem to get into). It would be a panel between the ntl customers and ntl itself. a way of putting our views across to ntl en mass in a organised way. It has also been suggested that this customer panel is used to obtain data on the performance of ntl's network across the country. I feel that the biggest threat to ntl will be the data that this panel could acrue. Normal data that ntl collects is private and not available, the data collected by the panel would be available on-line so that all could see, including ntl's competitors.

Their competitors would be able to use this information to market rival services to customers of ntl more effectivly.

What it does need is the full support of both hell sites to be able to achieve this, 20 tracerts and pings is not enough whats required if possible is 500-1000 members regularly adding this data and then it will make a difference.

It could log email troubles, outages, pings, tracerts and network speed across all of ntls network.

Anyway thats my 2p
mark

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by handyman

I think you have the wrong end of the stick, what sociable is suggesting is not a panel between the users of this site and the mods (as in a way to solve disputes like the ones you seem to get into). It would be a panel between the ntl customers and ntl itself. a way of putting our views across to ntl en mass in a organised way.

Bang on

Originally Posted by handyman

It has also been suggested that this customer panel is used to obtain data on the performance of ntl's network across the country. I feel that the biggest threat to ntl will be the data that this panel could acrue. Normal data that ntl collects is private and not available, the data collected by the panel would be available on-line so that all could see, including ntl's competitors.

Their competitors would be able to use this information to market rival services to customers of ntl more effectivly.

Personally I dont think that particular suggestion was either practical or sensible and not just for the reasons you state.

What might be more usefull is tracking pattens of problems as an early warning system of more serious failures down the line perhaps. This might allow NTL to anticipate needs or diagnose faults by sometimes putting seemingly unrelated things together. To use NTL's own original view of NTHW being "A thermometer of how things are going" not just generally but for specifics too.

An example would be the number of times someone will say "It only happens when I do xyz" or something along those lines. It's often being able to link these often seemingly disconected symptoms to the problem that helps identify the specific fix that is needed. If nothing else many here have that knack of using this kind of lateral thinking that is all too rare in some large organisations.

Originally Posted by handyman

What it does need is the full support of both hell sites to be able to achieve this, 20 tracerts and pings is not enough whats required if possible is 500-1000 members regularly adding this data and then it will make a difference.

It could log email troubles, outages, pings, tracerts and network speed across all of ntls network.

Anyway thats my 2p
mark

I agree getting active participation from ALL related forums would be great. Maybe each forum nominating one rep each to form the "Panel"? Now that's a brave suggestion. LOL I must remeber to curb my belief in the possibility that people can actually get along even us and NTL.

As already stated above I think the detailed collection of stats itself is unworkable and potentially open to abuse so I doubt it would go down too well. But a more general tracking of groups of say slow connections or game pings in a specific area might perhaps help identify potential "Hot spots" earlier than NTL might be able to themselves.

Anyways thanks again for the support and perhaps my suggestion about making the panel represent most if not all forums would even get round some of the more general doubts some have about which specific forum the idea comes from.

[carlingman]

Whilst I admire the sentiments and the idea of this I really think you are fighting a losing battle here although I would love to be proved wrong.

NTL got involved with the previous site and even went so far as buying it and still had their fingers burned and at the end even had the wool pulled over their eyes by the Mods/Admin running the place.

I would suggest they would be reluctant to get involved in any such venture again.

As for them ignoring their customers and the demand, in most cases they have and always will unless it be from a site where they have a controlling interest and we have been assured this site is not for sale so I canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see this happening.

Like to see the idea take off but unless it is on their terms I really donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see how this will happen.

[Russ]

NTL have proven on many occasions that it matters not one iota what their customers think - NTL will make decisions based on what their directors and their focus groups think. Irregardless of internet forums where several hundred (possibly over a thousand) members will give their views on a particular subject.

I'd give such a Customer panel my backing but I have this niggling feeling in the back of my mind it's the old 'chocolate teapot' situation

[rodd]

All ntl customers would support the idea-and-dream of being able to give effective input to ntl for improvement.

The reality is though, that there really needs to be a somersault in the ntl mind-set for that to come about though. Frank himself, privy to meetings within ntl, and trying to get change, found that he was up against a brick wall. Quote by Frank - I told them till I was blue in the face end quote.

So even if, in the end you do manage to get meetings with ntl, would ntl listen with any intention of taking notice of the suggestions and of making any changes. I don't think so, not with ntl's mind already set not to make changes. I believe that 'Anticap' also found this was the case when he had meetings with ntl.

To date, and recently with the .com closure, ntl have shown no inclination to take any notice of any customers' inputs, or of anyone who has the customers' interests at heart, even when it has been pointed out to ntl, that ntl themselves will benefit from the suggestions put forward. NTL are set on going the way that they want to, and that's it, the ntl mind-set.

So what would make ntl start to take notice. Well, pre buyout of .com by ntl, it was the effective and persistent public critical comments that made ntl take notice. It has been found that asking ntl reasonably to listen and to make changes, does not work, they are not that kind of reasonably company. It is best to ask from a position of some strength, in some way.

The strength of bad publicity is one way that it could be done to give us a stronger hand. Notice how bad companies on 'Watchdog' pay-up in the end, it's cheaper for them to do that, than to have the cost of the bad publicity.

That's why I think that building a large widespread continuous survey of ntl's services showing all their defects, will give us the strength of the bad publicity that we can bring to bear on ntl. Also, incidentally, the survey will be of interest to customers and potential customers.

The survey should be publicised as much as possible, and I feel sure that there will also be media interest in what we are doing, and also an interest in the survey results. There are, no doubt, other similar ways to get ntl's attention, and then if a meeting is obtained, it will be a more effective meeting.

It is the way to get more clout and have more customer power if there is going to be the slightest chance of getting ntl's attention.

[Frank]

I agree 100% with all of that. Good post.

I would like to give ntl the benefit of the doubt in a way though, even after all that has happened. I have to stress the point that it really does depend who any customer panel would be dealing with - not everyone at ntl is set in that stupid mindset. That is an important point to note. However! Finding one of these people, and ntl allowing them to interact with us with the authority to action changes is a completely different ball game...