Video On Demand - Why NTL have it right!

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

Personally, i would choose VoD over Sky+ because when NTL release their version of Sky+, NTL customers will still have VoD in addition to this and easy to use (no doubt a new box will make VoD quicker etc. too). Sky customers however will still be left with a paethetic Broadband attmept at VoD which won't win any customers at all. All i have to do is wait a bit, and while i am paying a lot less than Sky Customers (Sky don't do deals or discounts, i have 2 colleagues who have the same packages as me but i am probably paying £20 less) the wait is a very happy one

However it's all personal preference at the end of the day. Nobody can say Sky is better or NTL is better because it isn't true, different strokes for different folks.

You're basing your opinion on something that doesn't exist yet. You're also falling into the same mistake as the O/P by suggesting that Sky By Broadband is a full-on VOD system. It's not, it's never claimed to be. It's just a little added extra for existing subscribers. By the sounds of it, not a very good one, but added extra none the less. Although I am curious to know whether you or the O/P have actually used it. Also, have you actually owned a Sky+ box?

With regards to SBB, there is, however a full review here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28064.html which does mention that it is positioned as 'a loyalty bonus'. The same thing is also happening on mobiles from Sky too. That could not be compared to a full-on VOD system either.

The new ntl PVR might be the best bit of kit in the world, if it is, then I would say it is. But bearing in mind that they are four years behind in development of such a product (by comparison to Sky), and that it's ntl we're talking about I'd be surprised if it was a 'Sky-beater'.

Personally I think they'd have been better off ditching the project, as they're so late now anyway, and just developing an integrated HD solution - but quite where they'd get the money to replace several million STBs out in the market I don't know.

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by andygrif

You're basing your opinion on something that doesn't exist yet. You're also falling into the same mistake as the O/P by suggesting that Sky By Broadband is a full-on VOD system. It's not, it's never claimed to be. It's just a little added extra for existing subscribers. By the sounds of it, not a very good one, but added extra none the less. Although I am curious to know whether you or the O/P have actually used it. Also, have you actually owned a Sky+ box?

With regards to SBB, there is, however a full review here: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds28064.html which does mention that it is positioned as 'a loyalty bonus'. The same thing is also happening on mobiles from Sky too. That could not be compared to a full-on VOD system either.

Yes, i've used Sky+ and yes i have used NTL on Demand, though my area which is Norwich hasn't been enabled, so i can't say i have used it extensively. If SBB is an extra then that would make VoD an extra too and a better extra than Sky's extra IMO. Yes NTL are way behind Sky with the HD i have not denied that but as i said previously, i am happy to wait as i am on a cheaper package than virtually every single Sky customer with an equivilent to me. That's what you arn't getting, i'm saying different people like different things. Sky+ might be the most important thing to you, it's not to me the fact i have a cheaper package than than anything equivilent Sky customers get is most important to me.

Hence: Different strokes for different folks.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

Yes, i've used Sky+ and yes i have used NTL on Demand, though my area which is Norwich hasn't been enabled, so i can't say i have used it extensively.

But you haven't lived with either., that's the point i was making. I've used Homechoice and it looks wonderful. However I know a few people who live with it and it's not quite as amazing as I thought.

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

If SBB is an extra then that would make VoD an extra too and a better extra than Sky's extra IMO.

Aside from the fact that ntl offically launched a VOD service and Sky an added extra you mean? I'm assuming that (the same as me) you haven't used Sky By Broadband either, which makes me wonder why you insist on comparing that and ntl's VOD.

Sky have already stated that they will be launching a VOD service later this year. So what does that make SBB? In the opinion of the industry, it makes it a way of watching a few bits of video on your computer. That's not the same thing as true VOD.

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

Yes NTL are way behind Sky with the HD i have not denied that but as i said previously, i am happy to wait as i am on a cheaper package than virtually every single Sky customer with an equivilent to me. That's what you arn't getting, i'm saying different people like different things. Sky+ might be the most important thing to you, it's not to me the fact i have a cheaper package than than anything equivilent Sky customers get is most important to me.

I have no objection in people paying less and getting less - that's all basic economics. But I got the impression that you would favour ntl on the basis of a product that is not yet available. If that's not the case then I'm not sure why you put it in your reasoning for the decision. There's no doubt that ntl's current VOD offering (assuming you only want a handful of popular BBC programmes from that week) is cheaper than running a Sky+ subscription. But if you really are saying that the basis of your decision is on future promises from ntl, I would be personally surprised if ntl did not make additional charges like Sky+ for PVR functionality.

Personally, I don't understand why ntl are going down the route of PVR development. They are extremely well placed to offer the best VOD system in the country - far more than Sky can, currently.

However, the Sky status quo is changing and they will be able to offer true VOD through their shiny new broadband ISP which will really make the market interesting. As usual, ntl were caught napping, and now they need to use these few months really knuckling down to secure major content deals to make thier VOD offer better than everyone elses.

There's not a week that goes by when I don't see a press release from BT telling me the latest content deal they've struck up for their VOD service (also launching later this year), Sky already have lots of content deals in place...but ntl seem to be relying on a few badly encoded music videos, movies that cost more than renting from Blockbuster (and appear several months afterwards), BBC Worldwide DVDs (that cost more to watch a series than it costs to buy the deluxe box set) and the real draw, the free content from the BBC from that week....which, as mentioned, cannot be counted on as ntl often 'forget' to record it.

But you're right....different strokes.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

Yes, i've used Sky+ and yes i have used NTL on Demand, though my area which is Norwich hasn't been enabled, so i can't say i have used it extensively. If SBB is an extra then that would make VoD an extra too and a better extra than Sky's extra IMO. Yes NTL are way behind Sky with the HD i have not denied that but as i said previously, i am happy to wait as i am on a cheaper package than virtually every single Sky customer with an equivilent to me. That's what you arn't getting, i'm saying different people like different things. Sky+ might be the most important thing to you, it's not to me the fact i have a cheaper package than than anything equivilent Sky customers get is most important to me.

Hence: Different strokes for different folks.

For me and I would imagine many other customers Sky is cheaper than NTL. I have two Sky+ boxes on the full family pack with sports and movies.

£52.50 with Sky (£42.50 for channel package and £10.00 for multiroom).

Would be £57.00 with NTL (£42.00 for channel package and £15.00 for second STB).

I know that you may have to buy your Sky digiboxes and NTL boxes are only rented but. My first digibox was free with free install and I still have it in reserve. My first Sky+ box was free with free install and my second was £49.00 with free install. I did pay £65.00 for a out of warranty replacement of my first Sky+ box but could have avoided that if I had known then what I know now.

So for £4.50 per month less than what NTL would charge for 2 standard STB's I have 2 Sky+ boxes with the ability to record up to four programmes at once. Wonder what NTL will charge for their PVR when it eventually becomes available?

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by andygrif

I have no objection in people paying less and getting less - that's all basic economics. But I got the impression that you would favour ntl on the basis of a product that is not yet available. If that's not the case then I'm not sure why you put it in your reasoning for the decision.

But you're right....different strokes.

I never said that. I can use the reasoning of cost against waiting for a PVR from Sky. I never made a comparison of NTL's PVR against against Sky+ because NTL don't have an equivilent.

You however seem to think on a topic of 'Video On Demand - Why NTL have it right!' that Sky+ is relevant, which surprises me because are you telling me Sky+ is the same as VoD or even close? SBB is a far closer comparison to VoD than Sky+ is. Which is what the original poster of this thread was commenting on.

I'm sorry anyone who thinks Sky+ is an equivilent of VoD... You are wrong it's a different service.

What surprises me more is that you say you are suprised of my puting this into my reasoning as NTL don't have the product yet which Sky have (which as stated above i didn't do it was a series of points which i base my Sky/NTL decision on) yet you just stated Sky don't have VoD yet but are planning end of year for it? And yet you decided to post on this thread which is talking about why NTL VoD have it right?

Sorry, i am just slightly confused.

Maybe we should just cut this one short as i don't think either of us are wrong really, just we want different stuff.

[Fedz]

SkyByBroadband by it's very name and content is to look like a watered down VoD.

The Sky / Easynet LLU buyout is moving it towards programmes and movies delivered by broadband (IPTV - VoD) - this will either involve downloading and or streaming and if your on a broadband providers capped tier then you'll either have to pay the excess and or do without - no doubt at a much later date Sky will offer broadband access and also have deals which include IPTV but, the system will be the same as SBB.

Having Sky+ you are limited by your hard drive capacity where on NTL VoD your not.

Yes NTL PVR will be similar to Sky+ but NTL will also have the added advantage of VoD in an all-in-one system where you can watch from hundreds of programmes and films in an instant - a much more superior service delivery.

Yes I have downloaded/used then uninstalled SBB hence how I know of the 'nasty' leftovers as outlined in my previous post.

SBB is a depressing path towards Sky's IPTV - VoD.

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by ian@huth

For me and I would imagine many other customers Sky is cheaper than NTL. I have two Sky+ boxes on the full family pack with sports and movies.

£52.50 with Sky (£42.50 for channel package and £10.00 for multiroom).

Would be £57.00 with NTL (£42.00 for channel package and £15.00 for second STB).

I know that you may have to buy your Sky digiboxes and NTL boxes are only rented but. My first digibox was free with free install and I still have it in reserve. My first Sky+ box was free with free install and my second was £49.00 with free install. I did pay £65.00 for a out of warranty replacement of my first Sky+ box but could have avoided that if I had known then what I know now.

So for £4.50 per month less than what NTL would charge for 2 standard STB's I have 2 Sky+ boxes with the ability to record up to four programmes at once. Wonder what NTL will charge for their PVR when it eventually becomes available?

See this is what i mean about different strokes. I just have sports and not movies and i pay £4 per month permanently, not a fixed short term deal for the sports. I also have the 3 for 1 deal which means i pay effectively £12+ for the family pack and £12+ for talk unlimited and i pay £10 for multiroom when it's supposed to be £15 and i never have to worry about initial cost of a box or repairs.

My 2 work colleagues who have identical packs to me can't get near my pack's price and wish they lived in an NTL area.

I pay £40, i don't have movies, yet my telephone is included in that. Beat that Sky.

Your pack suits you and my pack suits me, don't think it makes one necessarily better than the other.

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

See this is what i mean about different strokes. I just have sports and not movies and i pay £4 per month permanently, not a fixed short term deal for the sports.

According to NTL's website its £15.50 per month for the Sky Sports collection. How did you get it for £4?

[Downloads]

Originally Posted by gazzae

According to NTL's website its £15.50 per month for the Sky Sports collection. How did you get it for £4?

The same way that people who have mobile phone contracts that are £30ish a month get phones once a year worth a couple of hundred quid. They don't advertise the fact, but you can always ask.

OK i am off for the evening heh But lets not have another NTl / Sky fight, lets hope they just continue learning from each other and push the limits for us lucky users!

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

I never said that. I can use the reasoning of cost against waiting for a PVR from Sky. I never made a comparison of NTL's PVR against against Sky+ because NTL don't have an equivilent.

Why do defensive? To avoid any further confusion, here's what we're saying in a nutshell...correct me if I'm missing your points:

I said that I would pick Sky+ over ntl's VOD system, as I use the Sky+ function like a VOD system, given that there's always more stuff I set up to record than I will actually watch, on the basis that I might find something insteresting on there. I said this becuase I have used both for several months, and the choice in my content is now much greater (in an 'on-demand' scenario). Yes I have spend a little time figuring out what I want it to record, but given that I've discovered some excellent programmes this way, I'm happy to do so. I would say the same about NTL too...I discovered the BBC programme Coast on there and was gutted that I'd missed most of it!

You said that you would pick NTL's VOD system, becuase at some point in time they would offer PVR functionality.

I'm suggesting that this cannot really be a deciding factor in which you would pick today, as the PVR function is not available on ntl and the VOD function is not available on Sky.

Am I missing anything here?

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

You however seem to think on a topic of 'Video On Demand - Why NTL have it right!' that Sky+ is relevant, which surprises me because are you telling me Sky+ is the same as VoD or even close? SBB is a far closer comparison to VoD than Sky+ is. Which is what the original poster of this thread was commenting on.

The O/P (in post 3) brought the subject of Sky+ into the fray. Personally, and you're as entitled to your views on this as I am, I cannot make any comparison between Sky By Broadband and a VOD system. First of all, it's not on demand - you have to download the content first. Second, it's not for watching on your TV (unless you've got a Media Center PC I guess), it's to watch on your computer. In the same way as Sky Mobile gives you clips to watch on your mobile phone, Sky By Broadband gives you clips to watch on your PC. It would be like saying that clips you can download from BBC website are VOD...well yes in the broadest use of the word, but not when it comes to industry definitions.

I'll say it again, I use my + box like a VOD system...I go out a lot, I set the box to 'tape' a lot of stuff when I'm not there and I flick thorugh the lists of what's on there when I've got time to kill, just like I did with the VOD system on ntl. Only now, I have lots more to choose from. So to me it IS comparable to a VOD system, but you need to put more work in at the front end to make it so (like ntl need to put more work into the back end to make their useful).

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

I'm sorry anyone who thinks Sky+ is an equivilent of VoD... You are wrong it's a different service.

Just like Sky by Broadband is a different service completely to ntl VOD and both are completely different to a VHS and Sky+.

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

What surprises me more is that you say you are suprised of my puting this into my reasoning as NTL don't have the product yet which Sky have (which as stated above i didn't do it was a series of points which i base my Sky/NTL decision on) yet you just stated Sky don't have VoD yet but are planning end of year for it? And yet you decided to post on this thread which is talking about why NTL VoD have it right?

Sorry, i am just slightly confused.

Clearly. I was saying that if I was made to choose between the VOD function of ntl and + function of Sky, I'd pick Sky+. Not on the basis that Sky will be launching VOD in the future, solely on the basis of the offer that was available to me today. Now ntl might pull their fingers out their backsides and put almost every programme ever made onto their VOD system by the crack of dawn tomorrow. In which case I would say that I would choose their system over the Sky+ system. Becuase that hasn't happened yet, I can only tell you what I would do today.

NTL's PVR might be the best thing in the world and they might get more and better content on VOD by the end of the year. Sky's VOD service might be pony - we don't know, we have't got there yet.

But to make comparisons between a service where you download a few clips of video to your PC and full-on VOD service is patently inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Fedz

The Sky / Easynet LLU buyout is moving it towards programmes and movies delivered by broadband (IPTV - VoD) - this will either involve downloading and or streaming and if your on a broadband providers capped tier then you'll either have to pay the excess and or do without - no doubt at a much later date Sky will offer broadband access and also have deals which include IPTV but, the system will be the same as SBB.

I'm assuming that this is opinion rather than publicly available fact? This is especially important as Easynet are yet to complete the deal with BSkyB, so I'm not really sure how we can be predicting the final specifications of a network that doesn't even exist on paper yet.

Originally Posted by Fedz

SBB is a depressing path towards Sky's IPTV - VoD.

Thank you for that prophecy of doom. Care to explain why IPTV is such a bad thing? Before you answer, I would point out that the ntl STB works on a very similar basis.

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Originally Posted by andygrif

Clearly. I was saying that if I was made to choose between the VOD function of ntl and + function of Sky, I'd pick Sky+.

Clearly you are confused too, lets just leave it we agree to disagree.

[andygrif]

So was I wrong in my summing up of what you were saying?

I really don't understand the problem. If I was wrong, tell me where and I'll put it right. if not, perhaps we can have a grown-up discussion about it.

There's nothing to be gained by taking one line of someone's post out of context in order to throw ones toys out of the pram.

Just so, if there is something that I am saying that you don't understand, tell me and I will try to explain myself better.

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

The same way that people who have mobile phone contracts that are £30ish a month get phones once a year worth a couple of hundred quid. They don't advertise the fact, but you can always ask.

Yes, but they do that in exchange for getting you into another 12 months contract.

I doubt NTL give 75% discounts just for asking though.

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Originally Posted by gazzae

Yes, but they do that in exchange for getting you into another 12 months contract.

I doubt NTL give 75% discounts just for asking though.

I was already on a 12 month contract before i had Sport added. Of course you have to take my word for it but i assure you i am not lying.

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by gruff_rhodes

I was already on a 12 month contract before i had Sport added. Of course you have to take my word for it but i assure you i am not lying.

Never said you were.

So as you were already in a 12 month contract and couldn't threaten to cancel, you just called up and said can I have a 75% discount and they said yes? No wonder they had financial troubles.