The next Prime Minister?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Russ D

In recent times.....

No there haven't been in recent times .. agreed.

But is that down to media alone ... or the parties that these 'baldies' represent ?

Originally Posted by trebor

Bexy you may like to read this taken from
http://www.parliament.the-stationer...xt/60517-15.htm
17 May 1996 : Column 1231

schools, what did the Labour party do? It opposed it. When the Government introduced the Education Act 1980, which brought in parental choice and provided information through testing, the Labour party voted against it. When the Government introduced the Education Reform Act 1988 and the national curriculum, the Labour party opposed those measures.
When the Government introduced the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990 and top-up loans for students, what did the Labour party do? It opposed those measures. When the Government introduced the Education (Schools) Act 1992--which made it easier for schools to become grant-maintained and brought in the Funding Agency for Schools for England--the Labour party opposed it. When the Government brought in the Education Act 1994, which reformed initial teacher training--the very issue that I was talking about, and about which Labour Members agreed with me--the Labour party opposed it

Hang on, Labour could have repealed the Conservatives' Student Grant legislation had they wished; they didn't. They could have abandoned school league tables; they didn't. They could have fully returned the Grant Maintained schools to Local Authority control and funding; they didn't, choosing instead a fudge to keep middle-class voters on-side. The Conservatives have never proposed going as far as Labour has with university tuition fees.

When you are in opposition, talk is cheap. All that matters is what you do when you get the chance. By that measure, Labour hypocrisy is astonishing. If you've watched the video clip I linked to, you will have seen Michael Howard listing off one or two of the things Blair pledged in the past but has shrunk back from now. As Howard said, we could debate the past for hours, the present and the future is more important.

But while we're talking about the past, to call the Council Tax 'son of the Poll Tax' (as Labour did when in opposition, and which you have implied) is completely bogus. The Council Tax is based on the value of your house and is therefore much more closely related to the rates. And as for the rateable value of your house ... the rateable value is now essentially meaningless, except for determining water bills if you don't have a meter. You pay £450 more because the council wants more of your money in order to function. Do you really think that if you were still billed on rateable value, the council would not have upped the %age of RV that you would have to pay them? Or do you think your council's budget for this year would be £x million lower as a result of some inability to get as much money out of you through rates as compared to council tax?

And if Council Tax is so bad, why has Labour done nothing about it in the last six years, and why does it not plan to do anything about it for the forseeable future?

[trebor]

Originally Posted by bexy

ok i know this is off topic, but if they opposed it why was it bought in?

and russ if u are now talking about in recent times, you should have stipulated that in your post to begin with :p

now I may be wrong on this, it was a long time ago, but the idea of having to pay for your further education was a conservative one.

and from what I have seen of the conservatives in recent years, not much has changed, they are still full of mad ideas that are not much use to anyone, but I feel sure if they got the chance they would implement them all and to hell with the people of this country. for eg, it was the conservatives who privatised everything and look where that has got us. it is for that and many other reasons
that I do not trust them enough to vote for them. If i ever do I expect I will be wearing a straight jacket in a rubber room, which no doubt I will have to have paid for myself.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

But is that down to media alone ... or the parties that these 'baldies' represent ?

IDS and the boy hague were Tory....Kinnock was Labour.....

And bexy, I'd have thought the fact I used leaders from recent times would have suggested I was talking about 'recent times'...

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Russ D

IDS and the boy hague were Tory....Kinnock was Labour.....

And bexy, I'd have thought the fact I used leaders from recent times would have suggested I was talking about 'recent times'...

But have we become such a fickle society that we base the control of a country on how much hair the potential leader has ??

I find it far more likely that there is a great deal of apathy within the public. There are many who don't back any party particularly, at the end of the day it's much the same whoever get's in. Its a popularity contest.

Originally Posted by trebor

for eg, it was the conservatives who privatised everything and look where that has got us.

It got you lower gas bills, lower electricity bills, lower water bills, lower telephone bills and, apart from water, a choice of service providers in each case (I assume you're an ntl customer?). Furthermore it reduced the likelihood of the whole country grinding to a halt at the whim of the workforce of nationalised behemoths like British Coal or British Rail.

I grant you it hasn't been 100% successful - the privatisation of British Rail was far from smooth. Even in this case, though, privatisation directly led to a massive increase in rail passenger numbers and a good deal of the network's problems can be blamed on endemic lack of investment in rail by both Tories and Labour over 50 years.

Thatcher's public service reforms in the 1980s were a turbulent and, for many people, a painful experience, but they are the basis of the economy we enjoy today and I don't see any of Blair's cabinet planning to change it. Funny that, as they voted against each piece of legislation at the time.

[trebor]

Originally Posted by towny

Hang on, Labour could have repealed the Conservatives' Student Grant legislation had they wished; they didn't. They could have abandoned school league tables; they didn't. They could have fully returned the Grant Maintained schools to Local Authority control and funding; they didn't, choosing instead a fudge to keep middle-class voters on-side. The Conservatives have never proposed going as far as Labour has with university tuition fees.

When you are in opposition, talk is cheap. All that matters is what you do when you get the chance. By that measure, Labour hypocrisy is astonishing. If you've watched the video clip I linked to, you will have seen Michael Howard listing off one or two of the things Blair pledged in the past but has shrunk back from now. As Howard said, we could debate the past for hours, the present and the future is more important.

But while we're talking about the past, to call the Council Tax 'son of the Poll Tax' (as Labour did when in opposition, and which you have implied) is completely bogus. The Council Tax is based on the value of your house and is therefore much more closely related to the rates. And as for the rateable value of your house ... the rateable value is now essentially meaningless, except for determining water bills if you don't have a meter. You pay £450 more because the council wants more of your money in order to function. Do you really think that if you were still billed on rateable value, the council would not have upped the %age of RV that you would have to pay them? Or do you think your council's budget for this year would be £x million lower as a result of some inability to get as much money out of you through rates as compared to council tax?

And if Council Tax is so bad, why has Labour done nothing about it in the last six years, and why does it not plan to do anything about it for the forseeable future?

my my thats a big quote
most politicians achieve nothing because they spend far to long arguing about it instead of doing it. you are right they could have repealed everything the the conservatives ever did, but then that would have had to be the sole objective for that term in office. it is easier to live with and adapt the last governments policies than to repeal them, the conservatives do that as well you know.

I call the council tax the poll tax because the bill never changed it was the same amount, only the name changed. and it's cost has risen at well over the rate of inflation which leaves me feeling mugged every time I pay it. it's name is irrelevant, it's cost is excessive, it is not nor has it ever been value for money.

what do the conservatives plan to do about the council tax? come on cheer me up

Originally Posted by trebor

my my thats a big quote
most politicians achieve nothing because they spend far to long arguing about it instead of doing it. you are right they could have repealed everything the the conservatives ever did, but then that would have had to be the sole objective for that term in office. it is easier to live with and adapt the last governments policies than to repeal them, the conservatives do that as well you know.

I call the council tax the poll tax because the bill never changed it was the same amount, only the name changed. and it's cost has risen at well over the rate of inflation which leaves me feeling mugged every time I pay it. it's name is irrelevant, it's cost is excessive, it is not nor has it ever been value for money.

what do the conservatives plan to do about the council tax? come on cheer me up

Agreed that you can't just spend your term repealing eveything the other lot did, but I don't think that's a universally valid defence for Labour's lack of action here. A lot of what we're talking about were fundamental ideological differences between Labour and the Conservatives. These things, surely, Labour should have reversed. Why didn't they? Because, they valued power more highly than principles and 'stole' moderate Tory clothes in order to make themselves electable.

As for the council tax, I'm not aware that the Tories want to change it, and I still think you are mistaken in blaimg the council tax per se for the size of the bill you pay for local services. Council budgets have soared in recent years, partially due to the central Labour Government fiddling about with the amount of cash it gives to councils, and partly because some councils are much, much worse at running things efficiently than others. Who holds the balance of power in your local district and county?

EDIT: It's worth noting, by the way, that the last Tory administration was quite prepared to use Government powers to cap rises in Council Tax to prevent the worst excesses of town hall incompetence. Labour has chosen not to do this. Again, I think you are mistaken to blame the Tories for your woes.

[Bex]

Originally Posted by Russ D

IDS and the boy hague were Tory....Kinnock was Labour.....

And bexy, I'd have thought the fact I used leaders from recent times would have suggested I was talking about 'recent times'...

umm no you may have just used them as examples off the top of your head.. :p

you should know by now how pedantic i can be so :p

as for the person who was talking about students loans etc.........up untill about 4/5years ago people received grants from the governemnt....which meant they did not have to pay it back, now we have to pay everything back, on top of paying for tuition fees, and on top of the interest they charge us, methinks they are trying to discourage people from going to universtiy, hence soon you will only see the middle/upper clases going, which is terrible

[trebor]

I don't know, thats sad. but I have only lived here for 6 months. 2 quick points before i have to go.
my bills are universally higher. and all governments are useless it's just some do less harm than others.

Originally Posted by trebor

I don't know, thats sad. but I have only lived here for 6 months. 2 quick points before i have to go.
my bills are universally higher. and all governments are useless it's just some do less harm than others.

You're not taking 15 years' worth of inflation into account. Honestly, in real terms the charges and tariffs that make up your utility bills are lower now than they were under nationalisation.

[Bex]

Originally Posted by trebor

<snip>and all governments are useless it's just some do less harm than others.

i agree

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by Russ D

In recent times.....

Well there has only been 3 PMs since Callaghan, one of who was a woman.

You could say that Tony Blair was balding, judging from this pic

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

[Bex]

Originally Posted by gazzae

Well there has only been 3 PMs since Callaghan, one of who was a woman.

You could say that Tony Blair was balding, judging from this pic

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

i'm going to have nightmares now

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by gazzae

Well there has only been 3 PMs since Callaghan, one of who was a woman.

You could say that Tony Blair was balding, judging from this pic

Maybe that's why he's losing popularity