Phrase 'British values' deemed offensive teachers told.

[heero_yuy]

Wheras brainwashing kids with socialist ideology or pro EU propaganda is perfectly acceptable.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by nfs6600

If peoples replies on the forum are upsetting you, the best advice your support worker should give you would be to be stop posting. If the replies you get upset you, rethink what you post in the first place?

......or just don't post at all?

Think i'll stick to taking advice from those with qualifications and experience in such matters. I don't see why I should have to stop using the forum just because i'm severely disabled.

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul M

Let me make this crystal clear, this is not your forum Richard, and you are not in a position to be making demands.

If you cannot cope with other peoples replies, and people disagreeing with you, then I suggest you leave until you can.

Indeed, I don't have the authority to make any demands, it was actually a polite request for him to stop hassling me.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me (after all, that's part of the reasons why mattrrs are debated). It's the tone and way that he does it (despite knowing of my limitations when criticising to a ridiculous level) that I find upsetting.

I was rather hoping for some support to enable me to continue using the forum.

---------- Post added at 21:29 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Richard sorry but your being very thin skinned and personally i see you as one of those who represent a major problem we have these days in this country in thinking everything should accomadate you or adapt to you. It's all over the internet at the minute people going to parts that don't suit them usually posting comments\threads they know will get disagreed with then expecting it to change rather then doing the old fashioned thing of not going to those sites or whatever and going to sites more inline with that person.

The internet is vast and caters to all it's upto the individual to find their happy place which there are plenty of not to go somewhere and expect it to change. Free speech is fast dying in the UK because people are too thin skinned or quick to play an ism card of some sort when they don't get their way and I'm getting tired of it. I'm disabled i have had to deal with people insulting me for that in the past and I've dealt with it in one of two ways, firstly if it's a forum or other site that i know will support the people insulting me I don't go back or if like cable forum there isn't an ingrained acceptance of such behaviour i learnt not to let it get to me and got a little better at my comebacks on the very odd occasion it's needed.

What i never did was report it to admins or as a lot are doing these days the police i find that absolutely pathetic unless specific threats of violence were made by someone who knows your address. Free speech isn't meant to be easy, it isn't meant to only apply if you like it and it shouldn't be stiffled because some people are too precious.

But I enjoy interacting with the majority of members and don't see why I should be subject to this treatment by a tiny minority. People go to admin/the police as there are laws to prevent this happening.

If you think of a brain injury as like a computer with a virus, it will sometimes take ages to come up with the correct answer or the wrong answer may be the end result!

Any right thinking person would want to help and not abuse this situation.

As the population ages, there are going to be more cases of people becoming disabled (particularly with regards to cancer and dementia), should they be critiscised for forgetting things?

In the past I've helped elderly people get things down from the shelves of supermarkets, I wouldn't have dreamt of refusing and saying that it was their problem to deal with it. A lady I knew had a stroke in her forties and could hardly speak, she just kept repeating a few words (which became a new type of basic language for her to communicate). I didn't mock her or say that she was getting on my nerves; I (and others) helped her all we could before she sadly died at an early age.

Statistics show that the majority of people will either become disabled through attack, disease, accident or old age. If they are lucky enough to escape this, then it's extremely likely that one of their loved ones won't.

I suppose what i'm trying to say is, don't tempt fate and be kind to others.

And I don't overly disagree but when it comes to the internet you can gauge what type of site your on relatively quickly and if it isn't to your full liking you move on you don't have the right to expect or demand any site change to better suit you. Personally i think the law is now intruding into areas it's not best suited for. I do not accept that anyone has to suffer so called online bullying between free vpn's and other easy measures you only get bullied if you want to and there are people out there in increasing numbers it seems who relish being victims and they are a problem not a solution.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

And I don't overly disagree but when it comes to the internet you can gauge what type of site your on relatively quickly and if it isn't to your full liking you move on you don't have the right to expect or demand any site change to better suit you. Personally i think the law is now intruding into areas it's not best suited for. I do not accept that anyone has to suffer so called online bullying between free vpn's and other easy measures you only get bullied if you want to and there are people out there in increasing numbers it seems who relish being victims and they are a problem not a solution.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

And I don't overly disagree but when it comes to the internet you can gauge what type of site your on relatively quickly and if it isn't to your full liking you move on you don't have the right to expect or demand any site change to better suit you. Personally i think the law is now intruding into areas it's not best suited for. I do not accept that anyone has to suffer so called online bullying between free vpn's and other easy measures you only get bullied if you want to and there are people out there in increasing numbers it seems who relish being victims and they are a problem not a solution.

I think that most people agree that the solution is to change people's attitudes, understanding and treatment of disabled people and the issues that they face through education and persuasion, rather than expect them to move on or put up with it.

If a black person was racially abused in a shop, should they be told to simply shop elsewhere to avoid it? If a gay person was refused service in a bar, should they simply accept the discrimination and drink elsewhere? I think not. The latter happened only the other day in Leeds and I understand that the bar owner is now in negotiation with the gay couple to resolve the matter (it was also featured on yesterday's news).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43683033

It is not the victims that are the problem, I remember when this was attempted by the police after the Stephen Lawrence enquiry and you still hear some people say that women were 'asking' to be raped.

Not all the perpetrators discriminate against the disabled out of malice though, some are simply ignorant of the facts or have never experienced mental or physical disability. I have a friend who made some shocking remarks about the Governments cuts to disability benefits and services on Facebook which showed her ignorance of the subject. She has now had to give up her £600 a week job and claim benefits (ironically, the Government cuts mean that she will be getting less than existing claimants) after being diagnosed with a debilitating condition. All of a sudden her attitude has reversed, but it's such a pity that it's taken this to happen to change her mind. This is what I meant by not tempting fate, karma or whatever people want to call it.

The law clearly says that disabled people do have the right to expect organisations to make adjustments to meet their needs and stop discriminatory attitudes/treatments. It matters not whether the organisations charges for its goods or services and complainants must not be treated less favourably because of their reaction to their complaint (this in itself could become a further case of harrassment.) Interestingly, which I never knew, cases of harassment can be brought against the perpetrators even if those on the receiving end don't make a complaint themselves! I suppose this is so that those charged with protecting others can take action if the victim is unwilling or unable to. The law, however, should only be used as a last resort when all else has failed. In fact, last time I started legal action for disability discrimination* the court required evidence that efforts had been made to resolve the situation informally.

* A financial settlement was reached before the case was heard and I made £3,500 available to Cableforum members to donate to the registered charities of their choice.

[pip08456]

Richard, I have no idea what your disability is nor the extent of it. I haven't a clue about your ethnic origin or sexual preferences or whatever.
As far as I am concerned you are just like any other member of this forum and as such will not treat you any differently than anyone else.
If you don't like being treated the same then just put me on your block list so you don't need to see anything I post.

Problem solved. Can we move on now?

You keep bringing up non internet examples while I'm talking about the internet and the way some people expect it to change to suit them but to take your examples if a black person was racially abused in a shop and there were other shops of course go to those other shops why would you want to spend any of your money in that kind of place. As for the gay bar example same applies although in my limited experience gay people tend to have their own bars to go to and how anyone would know someone was gay unless they made it an issue in the first place is beyond me.

We get people all the time bemoaning the nanny state and the entitled expectations some have and then flip the coin we have people who want the state involved in every single aspect of their life protecting and safeguarding them why again is beyond me. As for your education part there have been plenty of attempts at it the problem was that most of those looking to educate the ignorant were themselves ignorant of the type of people they were dealing with and ended up coming across as snooty people looking down their nose at others.

We will never eradicate the negative ism's because there are people too lazy to learn and too unpleasant to care so we either avoid them or learn to not let them get to us what we don't do is give them any attention at all because they view any attention as a win.

[richard s]

I would like to add to the 5 British values list.

6. Have pride in your country albeit, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.
7. Have the right to fly your countries flag or Union flag if you want to without intimidation or bylaws restricting you.
8. Treat people as you would like to be treated.

Anyone have other suggestions.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

You keep bringing up non internet examples while I'm talking about the internet and the way some people expect it to change to suit them but to take your examples if a black person was racially abused in a shop and there were other shops of course go to those other shops why would you want to spend any of your money in that kind of place. As for the gay bar example same applies although in my limited experience gay people tend to have their own bars to go to and how anyone would know someone was gay unless they made it an issue in the first place is beyond me.

We get people all the time bemoaning the nanny state and the entitled expectations some have and then flip the coin we have people who want the state involved in every single aspect of their life protecting and safeguarding them why again is beyond me. As for your education part there have been plenty of attempts at it the problem was that most of those looking to educate the ignorant were themselves ignorant of the type of people they were dealing with and ended up coming across as snooty people looking down their nose at others.

We will never eradicate the negative ism's because there are people too lazy to learn and too unpleasant to care so we either avoid them or learn to not let them get to us what we don't do is give them any attention at all because they view any attention as a win.

What I meant about the 'black example' was that the extent of dealing with it would be for the person to only go to another shop (which I'm sure they would do anyway) and not take the issue any further.

I (and the law) see no differentiation between internet and non internet examples. It's true to say that on the internet it is sometimes possible to block contact from people who seek to harass others, but there is no requirement on the part of the person who believes that they are being harassed to take any steps to prevent themselves from hearing or seeing the offending material. In fact, this would be an unwise thing to do as it would prevent incidents from being appropriately dealt with or being used as evidence. Also, doing this would be akin to saying that black people who are being racially abused on the street should deal with the matter by either not using the street that it occurs on, or to wear blindfolds and ear muffs!

I think a lot of the time individuals think that they can get away with more on the internet because they think that they can never be traced, in fact there is a whole industry dedicated to this task (as well as the statutory law enforcement agencies.)

The 'gay example' is primarily about the bar insisting upon mixed sex couples, which is inherinteley problematic with regards to sex and sexuality equality laws. The two men who experienced the discrimination were not obviously gay (not that it should make any difference if they were), but we're turned away because they were not a mixed sex couple. It's just been on the news that the local MP has now become involved and he wants some answers from the bar owner.

I agree with much of what you say in your last paragraph, but that doesn't mean that we should stop trying to stamp out discrimination, harassment etc.

I also think that a lot of people mistakenly believe that they satisfy the law by treating everyone the same and there is also an element of the 'if they want equality, why should they expect special treatment' mentality. I was actually told this over the phone recently by an employee of a major electrical manufactur. The woman eventually apologised after I explained that equality does not necessarily mean treating people in the same way and that the law actually insists that people provide extra help and consideration where appropriate.

The example I gave her was that if an able bodied person asked for help up the steps into a shop, the shop would not be under an obligation to do so. If, however, a disabled person asked for the same help, they would be under a legal obligation to provide it. They couldn't say that as they 'treat everyone the same and had refused help to an able bodied person, then they couldn't help the disabled person either'! The woman eventually understood, apologised and the matter was resolved there and then.

It's only those that refuse to amend their ways that end up being embroiled with the police and the legal system, the vast majority of people don't want to cause offence and are horrified to learn that they have done so (though, interestingly, I was advised yesterday that a person who genuinely doesn't mean to or believe that they are causing offence to a person with 'protected characteristics' (like myself) can still technically be prosecuted for harassment). I personally would like to think that an apology and undertaking to amend their behaviour would be enough in this situation.

Free speech has been a hard earned luxury in this country that is still denied to many in the world even today. It should never be abused to intentionally or unintentionally make the lives of minority or vulnerable people any more difficult.

---------- Post added at 22:31 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Originally Posted by richard s

I would like to add to the 5 British values list.

6. Have pride in your country albeit, England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.
7. Have the right to fly your countries flag or Union flag if you want to without intimidation or bylaws restricting you.
8. Treat people as you would like to be treated.

Anyone have other suggestions.

I'm not particularly proud (or ashamed) to be English, I just am!

I agree with 7 & 8

If you don't honestly see the difference between the internet and everyday normal life I'm not sure i can get you to understand how your position is damaging. Free speech is under attack in this country by so called progressives who are all for it as long as it supports them and call for it to be limited or legislated when it doesn't and lets not touch the subject of islam although it's the perfect example of all that's going wrong.

To be honest I don't feel as though I'm compatible with the UK and if i had the cash wouldn't be here anymore and it seems more and more people are feeling that way not sure if it's me or the country that is broken but one or both definately are.

[RichardCoulter]

As one gets older it can be difficult to acknowledge and change lifelong terminology and attitudes as the world changes. When I was much younger, I knew a man who (without any malice) calmy explained to the office that he'd painted his house 'nigger brown', whilst the younger members of staff looked on aghast. I guess as we become older the same can happen to us. There will be some terminology and attitudes currently held by the young generation that will be considered outdated and unacceptable when they are much older.

I'm not immune either, as a child, due to institutionalised discrimination, I used to refer to the 'paki shop' without a second thought!

An act of unlawful discrimination can be made on the internet, via phone, letter or done in the street. The fact that it's done online matters not as the internet is viewed as merely another form of communication and you will find that most website owners will make every attemot to stop this to protect themselves as it can get them into serious trouble for facilitating it.

It can be frustrating or even downright irritating having to change ones attitude and language, but I think that it's better than minority/disadvantaged groups having to put up with insults and remarks about how, for example, their disability affects them. The act of discrimination doesn't have to be verbal or written either, for example, if I was talking to someone and, because I sometimes have memory loss, if I were to forget my name and they made a facial gesture or rolled their eyes, that would be classed as an act of discrimination too.

Over the years, defences such as the disabled person is too thin skinned, was over reacting, etc have been tried and failed. The average pay out, however, is only £1,000, but it makes people think twice before doing it again. If the behaviour is repeated, is not discouraged by those further up the hierarchy or attempts are made to punish people for complaining with less favourable treatment, the damages can go much higher. Eg if a man repeatedly belittled and humiliated a disabled man in a bar and he complained to the Designated Premises Supervisor and nothing was done about it, or the disabled person was asked to leave, kept waiting at the bar on purpose or even barred from the premises altogether, it would not only be the original perpetrator that would be guilty of disability discrimination in the eyes of then law, the DPS would be liable too. The highest that I have ever received was a few months ago in a settlement reached out of court. The courts appear to be taking the issue much more seriously (I can't go into too much detail due to a non disclosure clause; presumably they are embarrassed about it), but this is how I was able to give some to charities of my choice and make £3,500 available to Cableforum.

Richard, for someone who repeatedly stresses the need to counteract discrimination, why do you repeatedly use words in your posts that are generally regarded as unacceptable in today's society, as if they are used, they are mainly used in a derogatory manner.

This could be classed as discrimination...

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Richard, for someone who repeatedly stresses the need to counteract discrimination, why do you repeatedly use words in your posts that are generally regarded as unacceptable in today's society, as fi they are used, they are mainly used in a derogatory manner.

This could be classed as discrimination...

I don't think that glossing over the past does any good at all, we cannot change history and that's why I think that Ofcom were wrong to fine Talking Pictures.

Minority groups were called or referred to using some shocking terms in the past and it's important that we don't forget this or else they will be forgotten. The word used in the Talking Pictures case has dropped out of use for so long that some younger people had never heard of it!

Some may view this as a good thing, but I think that we can all learn lessons from the past to better society as a whole for the future. It would be wrong to use such terms in a non historical context and illegal to use them with malice towards an individual.

In another thread I remember that you used historical terms (to make a valid point I will stress) for various minority groups, but stated 'the N word' for black people. I can't fathom why people seem to want to tiptoe around the black community and to no other minority group.

Also, using the 'N word' seems counterproductive to me as our brains hear or see it, work out what it means and tells us the offending word anyway!

Point, missed, completely...

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Point, missed, completely...

Forgive me, my own disability issues sometimes cause me problems with understanding. Are you saying that using such terms in any capacity could amount to an act of discrimination?