HD : Are these five channels encrypted on VM?

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

As VM is a closed system (in other words you need a supplied set top box and a viewing card) then I personally don't see the point of this query. Unlike freesat/freeview and even sky where you don't need a dedicated connection to the system due to them being EM signals radiated through the open air which means that anyone with the right equipment will receive FTA signals. It wouldn't surprise me if all TV shows were encrypted on the VM network.

Nope, VM broadcast FTA channels too.

These can be accessed by both former subscribers with VM equipment and those who have never subscribed using non VM equipment.

Originally Posted by RobboEdin

Sorry!!!

Who are these non-subscribers?

You seem to be supporting those who steal Virgin Media services.

They have no right to any channels from a non-subscribed Virgin Media connection.

Virgin Media - please encrypt all channels.

As I explained earlier, VM are not allowed to encrypt some channels and choose not to encrypt others (probably because the channels in question are not worth the costs of scrambling the signal).

VM are aware of this situation as, some time ago, when they bought a shopping channel, they turned off the encryption to improve it's reach.

Non subscribers can be a person who has cancelled and VM didn't require the box back (like the friend of mine below), those who use unauthorised equipment (less likely now that the Pay TV channels are no longer available for free since the introduction of Nagra 3 encryption) and those with cable TV's.

VM probably aren't bothered because it costs them nothing extra, it may end up with a paying TV customer in the future and the service is limited.

I wouldn't get too upset about this, as these people receive less than what is available on Freeview.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Have to admit I was surprised that some channels remained after taking my card out. Can see now why some ex-customers retain their boxes and they crop up on ebay.

Indeed.

A friend of mine had to cancel VM TV due to the cuts in disability benefits, he doesn't have an aerial and isn't allowed to put up a satellite dish.

They didn't want his old SD box back, so now he uses it for Radio 4, BBC1 and BBC News and is perfectly happy.

If the HD PSB channels were available, I was going to suggest he upgrade to an HD box, but now that you have kindly informed me that they aren't, I won't mention this to him

He's done this for years, but has been made aware that he may be cut off should VM require the connection in the cabinet for a paying customer.

Unfortunately, Catch Up TV does not work for non subscribers, so if this happens, i'll advise him to get a streaming stick. The costs of this can be recouped by then being able to cancel his TV licence.

[Mr K]

Personally don't begrudge him access given his circumstances. More fool VM for not collecting the equipment. Unfortunately looks like he'll need a licence if streaming iPlayer as the govt. are changing the law.

[RobboEdin]

RichardCoulter, what you are saying is completely wrong.

Only Virgin Media customers have legal right to access the Virgin Media TV service.

You mention non-Virgin Media equipment. It is illegal to connect such equipment to the Virgin Media cable and steal what you are not paying for.

[Mr K]

They haven't collected the box or disconnected him. He's done nothing wrong, VMs incompetence.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Personally don't begrudge him access given his circumstances. More fool VM for not collecting the equipment. Unfortunately looks like he'll need a licence if streaming iPlayer as the govt. are changing the law.

Yep, i've read that plans are being mooted to extend the need for a TV licence to catch up services.

Originally Posted by RobboEdin

RichardCoulter, what you are saying is completely wrong.

Only Virgin Media customers have legal right to access the Virgin Media TV service.

You mention non-Virgin Media equipment. It is illegal to connect such equipment to the Virgin Media cable and steal what you are not paying for.

AIUI, it's not illegal, but it is against VM t&c's. As non VM customers, these people haven't agreed to any VM terms and conditions.

Even if these were enforceable, my friend has not connected any unauthorised equipment to the VM network- it's as it was left by a VM engineer after installation and since cancellation of VM TV services.

Nothing is being "stolen". The bulk of the channels available either cost nothing for VM to put them there eg BBC1, or they get paid by the broadcaster for being there eg shopping channels.

I repeat what I said earlier, when VM bought a shopping channel years ago, one of the first things they did was make it FTA to increase it's reach and, therefore, any potential sales. This tells me that they are aware of and unconcerned* about non subscribers accessing these channels.

Indeed, I believe that there are/were places in the UK where TV aerials weren't allowed and householders were advised to connect the supplied VM feed directly to their TV set (I'm unsure if this still happens with the advent of digital). This is also the norm for other countries.

* There is a long standing disagreement between those with technical knowledge about such matters, that connecting non VM equipment to the network can push noise back out into the network and thus affect other viewers.

Until this is resolved, I don't condone or recommend that anybody connect anything but an authorised VM STB to the system.

These FTA channels are here for valid reasons to benefit people in various ways, including yourself.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

AIUI, it's not illegal, but it is against VM t&c's. As non VM customers, these people haven't agreed to any VM terms and conditions.

It may not be illegal, but at the same time Virgin Media are under no obligation to allow it.

Even if these were enforceable, my friend has not connected any unauthorised equipment to the VM network- it's as it was left by a VM engineer after installation and since cancellation of VM TV services.

Which may be the case for the older V box system. As I've previously said, TiVo now works in a different way and due it's internal and constant requirement to be authorised, you can't do the same with TiVo as you can with a V box.

As the V box platform is retired in favour of TiVo, then so the ability to view channels without an active subscription to Virgin Media will cease. If you wish to view channels subscription free, then there are alternative platforms available in the UK.

* There is a long standing disagreement between those with technical knowledge about such matters, that connecting non VM equipment to the network can push noise back out into the network and thus affect other viewers.

It's less likely now that analogue TV is not broadcast over cable, so you don't have people sticking the bare coax cable in the back of the TV, and with the improved encryption of the Smartcard swap out a few years back, and now the internal encryption for TiVo, the ability to connect fully illegal boxes is diminished.

Indeed, I believe that there are/were places in the UK where TV aerials weren't allowed and householders were advised to connect the supplied VM feed directly to their TV set (I'm unsure if this still happens with the advent of digital)

That only applied to analogue, where ntl and Telewest rebroadcast the core terrestrial channels in the range a standard UK TV could tune to. It has never applied to digital cable.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

It may not be illegal, but at the same time Virgin Media are under no obligation to allow it.

Which may be the case for the older V box system. As I've previously said, TiVo now works in a different way and due it's internal and constant requirement to be authorised, you can't do the same with TiVo as you can with a V box.

As the V box platform is retired in favour of TiVo, then so the ability to view channels without an active subscription to Virgin Media will cease. If you wish to view channels subscription free, then there are alternative platforms available in the UK.

It's less likely now that analogue TV is not broadcast over cable, so you don't have people sticking the bare coax cable in the back of the TV, and with the improved encryption of the Smartcard swap out a few years back, and now the internal encryption for TiVo, the ability to connect fully illegal boxes is diminished.

That only applied to analogue, where ntl and Telewest rebroadcast the core terrestrial channels in the range a standard UK TV could tune to. It has never applied to digital cable.

Yes, I've explained to my friend that VM could disconnect him at any time if the connection is needed for a new paying customer. However, he hasn't been disconnected in years, would the fact that he takes broadband from VM mean that he should be OK?

I thought that the V boxes were staying? The (then) CEO said that TiVo software could be dropped onto V boxes (but not the V+).

Thanks for explaining Re: TiVo and analogue.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

I thought that the V boxes were staying? The (then) CEO said that TiVo software could be dropped onto V boxes (but not the V+).

They did say years ago about TiVo software going on the VHD; but nothing happened. I wouldn't want TiVo software on the my VHD anyway; its much quicker than TiVos snail pace software.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Mr K

They did say years ago about TiVo software going on the VHD; but nothing happened. I wouldn't want TiVo software on the my VHD anyway; its much quicker than TiVos snail pace software.

Ahhh, so maybe they aren't going to do it now.

After asking a contact at VM why the FTA channels exist, I was told:

- Their cable franchises expressly forbid the encryption of channels 1-4 (1-5 in some areas). In practice, VM don't encrypt any of these in their franchise areas.

- If a customer is cut off due to not paying their bill, it would not be right to cut off basic services that have been paid for by their TV licence. It is assumed that all VM customers have a valid TV licence as this is a condition of receiving VM TV.

- If there was a total breakdown of the encryption system, paying customers would at least have something to watch whilst this was sorted out.

- In the event of a national emergency, BBC1 would be taken over by the Government and become the 'Emergency Broadcasting Service'. Essentially, it would provide information and advice in the event of eg a nuclear attack on the country. It's important to note that this service, whilst run by the BBC, would not be independent, it would essentially be a mouthpiece of the Government.

In such an emergency, it would be unthinkable for people to find that they couldn't access Government broadcasts due to encryption.

I also suspect that the shopping channels who pay to be on VM want as wide a reach as possible to tout their wares, other reasons include the belief that it is not worth paying the encryption service provider for the right to encrypt some channels eg Pick- this is FTA on all platforms and consists of repeats.

I hope that this helps to explain to Robo as to why some channels will never be encrypted.

[Mr K]

Very interesting Richard.

So the moral of the story is hang on to your TV Box if VM don't take it back. It may be of use in the event of a holocaust, or if the TV aerial blows off your roof

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by mr k

very interesting richard.

So the moral of the story is hang on to your tv box if vm don't take it back. It may be of use in the event of a holocaust, or if the tv aerial blows off your roof

😂😂😂😂

[paultrademark]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

It's important to note that this service, whilst run by the BBC, would not be independent, it would essentially be a mouthpiece of the Government.

So no change then

[neilo]

Omg.

[RichardCoulter]

It looks like VM will still be encrypting Channel 5 HD, even if it goes FTA on other platforms.

VM will have to make their PSB HD channels FTA before about 2020.

This is when the Government want the PSB SD variants closed to free up space on Freeview; so by default, the HD variants will have to be reclassified as PSB channels (which they aren't at the moment).

As such, from the date that the HD channels become PSB services, it would be unlawful for VM to encrypt them.

My friend can then finally upgrade to HD

[BenMcr]

I would question where this 'unlawful to encrypt' thing comes from. As far as I can see there is a 'must carry' requirement on Virgin Media as part of all subscription levels however that isn't the same thing.

http://www.pedz.uni-mannheim.de/date...-mustcarry.pdf (this is from 2001)

Digital must carry services cover all BBC broadcast services, including teletext, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5,and the Public Teletext Service (specifically the analogue version). The must carry obligation only arises where the service is broadcast for reception in the area covered by the PDSL or LDSL. Widescreen services, whether must carry or not, must be redistributed in at least the widescreen 16:9 format

I'm happy to be pointed in the direct of relevant information.

TiVo (which is Virgin Media's currently developed platform) works differently to the V boxes. You cannot have a non-subscription TiVo box, as the authorisation for services is internal to the box. TiVo doesn't rely on the Smartcard, and newly installed TiVo boxes do not come with one. Therefore you can't turn a TiVo box into a 'unencrypted only' box. It either is a subscribed box, or it's explicitly de-authorised.

In fact I'm pretty sure that where a customer is suspended, a permanent unremovable message is displayed over all channels on the TiVo box advising of an issue with the subscription. That's if the box can boot in the first place. It would also end up with box being unable to gain valid data from the TiVo data centre so the box would no longer display any EPG information.