McDonnell accused of supporting call to ban MI5 & disarm the police

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Labour has been infiltrated by large numbers of hard-left activists who have an unweighted vote in the choice of leadership thanks to idiotic changes made to the selection system by a certain Mr E Miliband. There is no point in the PLP trying to unseat him in a coup, because the constituency that selected him is still there.

It happened before in the late 70's with The Militant Trotskyist Group The result was nearly 2 decades of Tory government.

It wasn't until Labour purged itself of the hard left and became more centerist that it became electable again.

Funny how history has a way of repeating itself.

[Osem]

Yes, some of us are old enough to remember all that and wise enough to learn something from it. The same old names peddling the same old nonsense - far nastier and more extreme than any so called Tory ****.

Originally Posted by Chris

Labour has been infiltrated by large numbers of hard-left activists who have an unweighted vote in the choice of leadership thanks to idiotic changes made to the selection system by a certain Mr E Miliband. There is no point in the PLP trying to unseat him in a coup, because the constituency that selected him is still there.

The Tories already found out all this to their cost, when Iain Duncan Smith was elected on the strength of his popularity amongst the broader membership, in spite of the reservations of the party's MPs. A party's grass roots does not reflect the wider electorate. The leader must primarily attract the support of the Parliamentary party, because the Parliamentary party is the only vehicle by which laws might be made and the country might be governed. And for the parliamentary party to be elected, its leader must have appeal beyond the core vote (and most certainly beyond the activist base, which is even narrower). Also, the Parliamentary party consists of of politicians, who are usually rather better at understanding how to appeal to the masses. They have to be, because their own jobs depend on it.

The issue for the Labour as well is that these new grassroots members seem to have no real interest in obtaining power. They are far more concerned about moralistic grandstanding and purging Labour of the Blairites whom they detest more than Tories (although they really do hate the Tories).

I think their goal is to hold onto the Labour party and, crucially, the apparatus that entails until the Tories eventually become so unpopular that they will be voted out no matter whose in charge. Then they'll strike. It's a insane idea but probably works in their own heads.

The moderate Labour members are being sidelined and the 'momentum' organisation may attempt deselections in future. The only thing that is giving the moderates hope is that Corbyn is so dreadfully woeful as leader it's unlikely he will be able to hold on long enough for the far-left to gain a foothold. Even amongst the new membership there isn't enough of the militants to vote in another of Corbyn's crew if the moderates rally around one candidate.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Damien

The issue for the Labour as well is that these new grassroots members seem to have no real interest in obtaining power. They are far more concerned about moralistic grandstanding and purging Labour of the Blairites whom they detest more than Tories (although they really do hate the Tories).

I think their goal is to hold onto the Labour party and, crucially, the apparatus that entails until the Tories eventually become so unpopular that they will be voted out no matter whose in charge. Then they'll strike. It's a insane idea but probably works in their own heads.

The moderate Labour members are being sidelined and the 'momentum' organisation may attempt deselections in future. The only thing that is giving the moderates hope is that Corbyn is so dreadfully woeful as leader it's unlikely he will be able to hold on long enough for the far-left to gain a foothold. Even amongst the new membership there isn't enough of the militants to vote in another of Corbyn's crew if the moderates rally around one candidate.

That's a pretty frightening prospect.

[Chrysalis]

Its worth remembering a few things here.

The press is mainly right wing bias, so they will be out to try and dirty left wing shadow cabinet members even if it means lieing to do so (yes the sun is trash like the daily mail and NOTW in they will make stuff up).

You guys are advocating a central labour party like it was under blair and what liz kendall wanted, one that will probably back everything the tories and do then begs the question what is the point of a party that is a clone of the tories?

Dispite the viewpoint on here millions of people like corbyn in this country, there is a reason he is popular with many and why he got voted in.

With all that said tho labour will be unelectable, I said this when he got the leader gig, but also as has been pointed out by people a left wing labour will serve as a better opposition then a central labour party.

[Osem]

Corbyn didn't get voted in by 'millions of people' so how on earth do you know how popular he is? A left wing Labour won't be a better opposition, it'll just be a perpetual opposition. An unelectable Labour party can do far less to stop the Tories than one which is in government.

[rhyds]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Its worth remembering a few things here.

The press is mainly right wing bias, so they will be out to try and dirty left wing shadow cabinet members even if it means lieing to do so (yes the sun is trash like the daily mail and NOTW in they will make stuff up).

"The media"? Does that include the Mirror (so far to the left it would struggle to get around a roundabout)? Or the Guardian?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

You guys are advocating a central labour party like it was under blair and what liz kendall wanted, one that will probably back everything the tories and do then begs the question what is the point of a party that is a clone of the tories?

There's a difference between backing the tories and being a credible opposition. Half of Labour's problem isn't their policies, but rather the infighting and the obvious feel of it being Amateur Night at Labour HQ. For example, its not really an issue if Labour opposes Trident or not (the voters can decide on that themselves), but rather how the Labour leadership announced that Ken Livingstone was to carry out a defence policy review without mentioning the fact to the Shadow Defence Secretary Maria Eagle. It smacks of either complete amateurism, or a desire by the hard left of the Labour party to take "their" party back.

As for "New" Labour being Tory clones, as a naturally right leaning voter (but not a conservative or UKIP voter) I'd disagree they were tory clones, however they did do one thing that no Labour government did before them...

They won elections.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Dispite the viewpoint on here millions of people like corbyn in this country, there is a reason he is popular with many and why he got voted in.

Corbyn got himself voted in by Labour's activist vote and a large number of "three quidders". These aren't your average voter, who rolls up and puts a cross in a ballot box to return an MP. Political party membership in the UK is at an all time low, and those that are party members and activists don't represent the vast majority of people who aren't.

Just look at the conservatives under IDS. He was popular with the party, but was about as much use as fart in the wind.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

With all that said tho labour will be unelectable, I said this when he got the leader gig, but also as has been pointed out by people a left wing labour will serve as a better opposition then a central labour party.

What purpose is there to perpetual opposition? Labour has already shrunk back to its core mining areas, and even these are under threat from UKIP (basically the tories but not called the tories so you can vote for them with a clear conscience). If Corbyn and his cronies carry on, the only people left voting Labour will be the subscriber base of the Socialist Worker (all twelve of them) and marxist university lecturers.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Its worth remembering a few things here.

The press is mainly right wing bias, so they will be out to try and dirty left wing shadow cabinet members even if it means lieing to do so (yes the sun is trash like the daily mail and NOTW in they will make stuff up).

You guys are advocating a central labour party like it was under blair and what liz kendall wanted, one that will probably back everything the tories and do then begs the question what is the point of a party that is a clone of the tories?

Dispite the viewpoint on here millions of people like corbyn in this country, there is a reason he is popular with many and why he got voted in.

With all that said tho labour will be unelectable, I said this when he got the leader gig, but also as has been pointed out by people a left wing labour will serve as a better opposition then a central labour party.

Yes, of course, it's all lies, John McDonnell never really signed the letter calling for MI5 to be disbanded.

Oh no hang on a minute he did after all.

http://order-order.com/2015/11/19/di...donnell-photo/

The "right wing media" don't *need* to tell lies about the current Labour leadership.

In the words of the now ex-Labour party member, the comedian, Robert Webb, Jeremy Corbyn seems "almost GM designed by Tories to lose the next election".

It has got so bad, the Telegraph's sketchwriter has complained that the Labour front bench is in danger of putting him out of a job:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-of-a-job.html

[rhyds]

That's what happens when you have serial troublemakers suddenly in positions where people (quite rightly) pay attention to them and expect a bit of consistency.

[Osem]

Some people just can't help themselves and it's great watching them and their apologists squirm every time they're caught out. Whether it's lies, spin, hypocrisy or just flawed ideology/policy, they never learn.

[heero_yuy]

It's going to be interesting where disaffected Labour supporters will cast their votes. Not the Tories and the Lib-dems are a busted flush. UKIP could be the surprise dark horse here.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It's going to be interesting where disaffected Labour supporters will cast their votes. Not the Tories and the Lib-dems are a busted flush. UKIP could be the surprise dark horse here.

Does UKIP allow dark horses?...