Harman's Labour 'rebellion'

[Arthurgray50@blu]

We need a Labour Leader that is strong enough to take on The Tories. And l have never heard of Corbyn.

My vote would go to Burnham. We have to have a leader that is strong enough to stand up against Cameron and Osborne.

What Osborne is doing at the moment is appalling. I think what is so annoying is that MPs are putting in silly expense claims, they wages have been INCREASED and yet Osborne is still making cuts.

We need a Labour leader will take them on.

What we could do is have an MP with some bottle, that MPs who is the youngest MP in history, she told the government what she really felt like.

That's what we need

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

That's what we need

No, that's what you want. What we need is Corbyn to be elected leader and make Labour unelectable for at least two decades.

Looks like we'll get that.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

No, that's what you want. What we need is Corbyn to be elected leader and make Labour unelectable for at least two decades.

Looks like we'll get that.

You need a strong opposition otherwise the Tories will just run riot without ever being held to account. It's not like football teams where you just support your side no matter what. At least for those of us who aren't active members of a particular party.

Daniel Hannan, a Tory MEP, gives such an argument here:

http://www.conservativehome.com/thec...ervatives.html

Politics depends on credible opposition. Take away the fear of losing office and governing parties become flabby and often corrupt. If my appeal to your patriotism fails to move you, let me appeal to your Tory loyalism. Look at what absence of an opposition did to Scottish Labour in its rotten burghs. Do you want to risk a similar fate for our party?

Personally I like the idea that Corbyn will move Labour so far left that the centrists break away and form their own party, maybe with the Liberal Democrats or at least the Orange Book Lib Dems, and this new centre-left party becomes the new opposition freed of the more socialist aspects of Labour and the Unions.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Damien

Personally I like the idea that Corbyn will move Labour so far left that the centrists break away and form their own party, maybe with the Liberal Democrats or at least the Orange Book Lib Dems, and this new centre-left party becomes the new opposition freed of the more socialist aspects of Labour and the Unions.

That would be a positive result IMHO.

[Osem]

The Social Democrats were supposed to be that weren't they and look how that ended...

Originally Posted by Osem

The Social Democrats were supposed to be that weren't they and look how that ended...

True also the Tories are relatively moderate anyway so it's not quite clear how they could position themselves to be different enough. I think that while the SDP didn't quite work New Labour showed that there is room for that kind of left-wing party (or 'Red Tories' as their critics dismiss them as) and if Old Labour won't provide it then maybe the new party could?

It's difficult though because the conventional left/right axis isn't there anymore imo. In England it seems to come down to minor quibbles over the exact amount of public spending that we should make but other than that are there any major dividing lines in English politics? No one is threatening the concept of the NHS seriously. No one really wants to raise taxes to a radical degree. No one cares too much about military spending. Education doesn't seem to cause division. The EU causes issues but there will be a referendum on that and i don't think it moves many votes.

I think the biggest issue is Scottish Nationalism and actually Corbyn might actually help us there. I think it would be interesting to see how the SNP deal with Labour coming at them from the left. There is a big difference between the SNP's rhetoric and their policies. They might find themselves unstuck if they lost the perception of being the left-wing heroes of Scotland.

Maybe Labour's best hope is to elect a moderate and hope the Tories lose the election themselves. That's pretty much how the Tories got in anyway. We just seem to elect parties on competence rather than ideology....

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

True also the Tories are relatively moderate anyway so it's not quite clear how they could position themselves to be different enough. I think that while the SDP didn't quite work New Labour showed that there is room for that kind of left-wing party (or 'Red Tories' as their critics dismiss them as) and if Old Labour won't provide it then maybe the new party could?

It's difficult though because the conventional left/right axis isn't there anymore imo. In England it seems to come down to minor quibbles over the exact amount of public spending that we should make but other than that are there any major dividing lines in English politics? No one is threatening the concept of the NHS seriously. No one really wants to raise taxes to a radical degree. No one cares too much about military spending. Education doesn't seem to cause division. The EU causes issues but there will be a referendum on that and i don't think it moves many votes.

I think the biggest issue is Scottish Nationalism and actually Corbyn might actually help us there. I think it would be interesting to see how the SNP deal with Labour coming at them from the left. There is a big difference between the SNP's rhetoric and their policies. They might find themselves unstuck if they lost the perception of being the left-wing heroes of Scotland.

Maybe Labour's best hope is to elect a moderate and hope the Tories lose the election themselves. That's pretty much how the Tories got in anyway. We just seem to elect parties on competence rather than ideology....

That's what happened in 1997 when we were all hacked off with sleazy Tories and accordingly voted for 'whiter than white' Bliar who promised to be better. Maybe we have to get used to the idea that elections are lost rather than won. As much as I detest Labour, I also hate the idea that another party might be able to stay in power simply because there's no credible opposition.

[denphone]

Yes parties of all colours can get very arrogant when they are in power too long and get drunk with power and stop listening.

[Ramrod]

As much as I detest Labour, I also hate the idea that another party might be able to stay in power simply because there's no credible opposition.

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

My vote would go to Burnham. We have to have a leader that is strong enough to stand up against Cameron and Osborne.

That idiot? Read this

he has revealed himself to be a man without bravery, conviction or authority, totally unsuited for any kind of leadership. As Heseltine once said damningly of Neil Kinnock, he is “not just a windbag but also a windsock.”
One respected Labour moderate wrote of him yesterday: “If you asked him his favourite jam, he’d have two different flavours.”
The same pathetic vacillation was shown during the televised BBC leadership hustings last Sunday, when he was asked if he would have Corbyn in his Shadow Cabinet. With a straight face and no doubt eager to court the swelling vote of the Left, he said he was “open” to such an idea. Later his aides explained that this pledge had been “a joke”, though it has been hard for anyone to detect the humour behind it.

In the same spirit, he cannot see a bandwagon without climbing on board.

The man is an opportunist lightweight

Originally Posted by Osem

That's what happened in 1997 when we were all hacked off with sleazy Tories and accordingly voted for 'whiter than white' Bliar who promised to be better. Maybe we have to get used to the idea that elections are lost rather than won. As much as I detest Labour, I also hate the idea that another party might be able to stay in power simply because there's no credible opposition.

It's not just Blair promising to be better though it was the fact he made Labour electable by ditching the fringe wackiness that characterised his party until that point. Too many in Labour seem to value ideological purity over pragmatism and hence seem content to lose elections on their terms than win elections by compromising with the electorate.

It's telling that Kendell, by saying they need to address some of the reasons they lost, is dismissed as a 'Tory'. It's equally telling that 'Tory' is the worst epithet they can imagine. They don't seem to understand a large amount of the electorate don't really feel too strongly about either party so shouting 'TORY!!!!' won't convince them.

It's nuts.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:20 ----------


That idiot? Read this
The man is an opportunist lightweight

Idiots appeal to idiots...

Originally Posted by Ramrod

this
The man is an opportunist lightweight

I don't get him. He seems to have no presence at all. His campaign so far seems to be to tell everyone who'll listen that he is from the north and likes football. He isn't part of the Westminster bubble you see, because he is from the North. When he goes up North to watch football he speaks to ordinary northerners (you can tell they're northerns cos they're plain speaking and like football) and relates to their concerns because he grew up in the North (watching football) and so isn't part of the Westminster bubble like ordinary folk back up North.

In case you don't understand his appeal, it's the fact he is from the North by the way.

[Osem]

Is he from the north then?

He must have a pet ferret...

---------- Post added at 21:58 ---------- Previous post was at 21:57 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Yes parties of all colours can get very arrogant when they are in power too long and get drunk with power and stop listening.

I can't see the Lib Dems getting drunk with power anytime soon

[Ramrod]

I laughed out loud:

Half of the Labour MPs who backed Jeremy Corbyn desert to rival candidates
Former Labour foreign secretary Margaret Beckett admitted she had been a “moron” for supporting Mr Corbyn, as panic starts to grip the party that it is lurching to the Left

link

[Osem]

Well, being a moron, she's in very good company in the Labour party. I dare say they're hoping to be as radical and successful as Syriza in Greece, snatching a terrible outcome from a bad one...