Auschwitz book-keeper Groening sentenced to four years

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I put it to you it makes a hell of a lot of difference, it's very easy for you to sit in an ivory tower and pontificate and cast judgement. I suspect if you were placed in the same situation it would sharp change.

I am not casting judgement upon him as a person but saying he is responsible for his part in the running the camp. There is a disconnect here where you think just because you can understand his motivations and, in the same situation, would do the same thing means he isn't culpable.

Very few people would have known what they were getting into. This isn't a film where people woke up with evil intent but they still ended up doing evil things.

The Times has better reporting of this including the part where he did occasional guard duty on those that arrived and the Judge's statement:

“Naturally this period was coloured by the ideology of the time, the Jews were presented as a danger to Germany, but this did not prevent you thinking about things,” the judge said, again addressing Groening directly.

“The war was going well and you did not want to stand on the sidelines. You wanted to be part of it. That is a decision that you made,” he said.

“You said yourself, you wanted to be part of this dashing group, the SS, you wanted to wear this uniform. You voluntarily applied.”

When Groening learned of the death of his brother at the front, the judge noted that he decided to stick to his safe office job at Auschwitz.

“I do not want to say you are a coward but you opted for a white collar job at a desk which ensured a secure position,” the judge said, causing Groening to look to the ceiling and blink rapidly before regaining his composure.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Damien

I am not casting judgement upon him as a person but saying he is responsible for his part in the running the camp. There is a disconnect here where you think just because you can understand his motivations and, in the same situation, would do the same thing means he isn't culpable.

Very few people would have known what they were getting into. This isn't a film where people woke up with evil intent but they still ended up doing evil things.

The Times has better reporting of this including the part where he did occasional guard duty on those that arrived and the Judge's statement:

He is culpable of taking the money from the prisoners and performing guard duty, he is not and cannot be held accountable for their deaths.

[richard s]

The SS were specially selected lunatics, in my view those who were responsible in genocide should pay the price regardless of age, race, etc.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

He is culpable of taking the money from the prisoners and performing guard duty, he is not and cannot be held accountable for their deaths.

The whole purpose of the camps were to kill people quickly and efficiently. Does it really matter who physically administered the final part of it?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Damien

The whole purpose of the camps were to kill people quickly and efficiently. Does it really matter who physically administered the final part of it?

Erm, yes ????

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Erm, yes ????

Why? As I said this guy could have been ordered to kill the trigger or work at a desk. All the arguments you've made about this have been he was forced to do and was following orders. Why doesn't that apply to the people assigned to the killing but does for the ones assigned to making the process run smoothly?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Damien

Why? As I said this guy could have been ordered to kill the trigger or work at a desk. All the arguments you've made about this have been he was forced to do and was following orders. Why doesn't that apply to the people assigned to the killing but does for the ones assigned to making the process run smoothly?

But wasn't

The people who pulled the triggers or flicked the switches or turned the valves are responsible for the deaths. The man who took their money as they came into the camp is not.

In fact bollocks, are the people who built the building responsible? after all had it not been built the exterminations couldnt have taken place. If they're dead sod it lets prosecute the immediate family ???

You used to be one of the most switched on people i knew on here, not entirely sure whats happened?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

But wasn't

The people who pulled the triggers or flicked the switches or turned the valves are responsible for the deaths. The man who took their money as they came into the camp is not.

You've said that he was only following orders and if he hadn't he might have been killed. However the same goes for the people that did the physical killing.

Why are they fair game for prosecution but the administrators not?

After all these were camps designed to kill people. People worked to make these camps as efficient as possible. The train drivers, the accountants, the guards and the other administrative staff where all working to make these camps work.

Also I would point out he isn't being convicted for murder but accessory to murder.

In fact bollocks, are the people who built the building responsible? after all had it not been built the exterminations couldnt have taken place. If they're dead sod it lets prosecute the immediate family ????

No because the test is that you had to know what the purpose of the camp was.

[papa smurf]

wonder what Tony Bliars PA will get at the trial i doubt i was only taking notes will be a defense .

[Julian]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

But wasn't

The people who pulled the triggers or flicked the switches or turned the valves are responsible for the deaths. The man who took their money as they came into the camp is not.

In fact bollocks, are the people who built the building responsible? after all had it not been built the exterminations couldnt have taken place. If they're dead sod it lets prosecute the immediate family ???

You used to be one of the most switched on people i knew on here, not entirely sure whats happened?

Almost all of the construction was carried out by prisoners so they didn't survive.....

[adzii_nufc]

Where's the fairness in all this too? As I've already said, there were several high ranking Nazi officials that committed real atrocities and actually killed people that have since been pardoned and went on to take up even higher ranking jobs in companies like Volkswagen. Too hard to chase someone with money eh? Easier to punish a book-keeper whom went the entire war without pushing a switch.

Extremely dodgy logic in this. I wonder if the Germans would also punish their own servicemen if they were massacring civilians with drones the same way the British and US army are.

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Julian

Almost all of the construction was carried out by prisoners so they didn't survive.....

But they still helped the Nazi cause right? They had the same choice as this guy, do it or be killed. Even worse when considered it's highly likely the *******s forced them to build it then killed them anyway.

[heero_yuy]

Well if we're going to pursue those who have some responsibility for hundreds of thousands of deaths but didn't actually pull the trigger a certain TB should be in the dock together with his cohorts.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Well if we're going to pursue those who have some responsibility for hundreds of thousands of deaths but didn't actually pull the trigger a certain TB should be in the dock together with his cohorts.

That's impossible, he's British. Should know by know it doesn't work like that if you're British or from the US.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33533264

The witch hunt on the former Nazi has reached it's conclusion.

Hope all the do-gooders are pleased. What is this? This still hasn't been left alone? They're now chasing 94 year old men that simply had a choice of doing what they were told or face near certain death themselves. 70 years and they're still using the 'Nazi Machine' thing. Absurd.. Leave it alone.

The guy himself doesn't deny he's morally guilty, but it really shows what it's come to now, instead of letting go they're chasing Book-Keepers.

Have to say I agree with you on this particular example

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

The same way the people who loaded the trains or drove them are responsible. They're accessories to the process. They knew what the purpose of their jobs was.

Reign it in a bit.

What about all the women that worked in UK munitions factories during the war effort.

Knowing full well that the bullets and bombs they make are going to kill some innocent people and children.

Do you view them in the same way. They didn't pull the trigger, but they provided the weaponry for the those that did. Is the blood of innocent people on their hands?

[papa smurf]

must say i fail to see what justice has been served here this is revenge for something he had no control over .